Crush...Yiff...Destroy!

RailFoxen · Vociferator Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 625

This hasn't been mentioned within the forums yet. In the interest of promoting atrocity saturation, I present: SL Horrors.

21st Century Digital Boy · Venter Joined: 27 Dec 2003 Posts: 202

Those picture make me sad to be a member of the human race.

Kadius · Needs to get out more Joined: 10 Feb 2004 Posts: 911

I don't need to see such things so early in the morning.

I need like, a kick to the head from a horse, to be ready for this kind of thing.

That being said... :vomit:

Stoneth · Needs to get out more Joined: 01 Dec 2004 Posts: 1225

Second Life: The only multi-user online universe where you can finally be a large-dicked, inflated, herm, inane-faced dragon AND EVERYONE ELSE CAN FUCKING SEE IT!!!

Paul · Needs to get out more Joined: 01 Feb 2004 Posts: 1092

:shock: Wow. One single page with examples of almost everything that's wrong and bad about furry character designs. I doubt the inventors of Second Life envisioned it to be used for such horrors. Yet more proof that furry ruins everything.

Skunkfuckers Inc. · Needs to get out more Joined: 20 Jan 2004 Posts: 1006

:shock: Wow. One single page with examples of almost everything that's wrong and bad about furry character designs. I doubt the inventors of Second Life envisioned it to be used for such horrors. Yet more proof that furry ruins everything.

Furryisms all boil down to psychosexual toxic waste.

creature · Vociferator Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 520

Yeah. You know, I think I'm gonna stick to playing World of Warcraft. Least there the freaks aren't MAKING the game.

SLaitila · Vociferator Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 490

The name "second life" holds quite an amount of irony in it. Especially after seeing those shots.

Shmeckopolis · Vociferator Joined: 31 Mar 2004 Posts: 327

Jesus Christ, and here I am, thinking of the crazy looking people in the Second Life portions of G4's Portal, not knowing shit like that could be done in that game.

Mother fuck, WHY?!?!?!?!?!?!?

GoManVanGogh · Vociferator Joined: 18 Nov 2003 Posts: 659

Jesus Christ, and here I am, thinking of the crazy looking people in the Second Life portions of G4's Portal, not knowing shit like that could be done in that game.

Mother fuck, WHY?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Yes, WHY oh WHY did they cancel that show? It was GREAT! It was the MMO version of MST3K!

WHY, God, WHY?!

Ebonyleopard · Venter Joined: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 264

Is this like, for real? I don't do any kind of online gaming so I guess it's hard for me to grasp on the thought that there's stuff like this actually out there.

How do these people make these things? I mean, it's so....weird I really can't believe it exists.

Heaven only knows, if the furry 'adult' areas are this odd, I shudder to think of what the 'normal' adult areas would be like.

People need to get out more, if they got the talent to make giant herm dragons on their own, they are really wasting their time.

Zod God · Prattler Joined: 15 Jun 2005 Posts: 105

Those picture make me sad to be a member of the human race.

These are not humans, trying to say that they are would insult them. They have the free spirits of wolves, foxes, and gay minotaur herms.

YOU ARE FILTHY HYOOMAN!!!11elevenoneone

Monkey King · Vociferator Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 459

Is this like, for real? I don't do any kind of online gaming so I guess it's hard for me to grasp on the thought that there's stuff like this actually out there.

How do these people make these things? I mean, it's so....weird I really can't believe it exists.

Heaven only knows, if the furry 'adult' areas are this odd, I shudder to think of what the 'normal' adult areas would be like.

People need to get out more, if they got the talent to make giant herm dragons on their own, they are really wasting their time.

Of course it's for real. The thing on the side says you have 233 posts here, and you're still shocked by this sort of thing? I stopped being surprised by anything the fandom produces long before I even got here. That's the funny/sad part of it all; you can't make this stuff up.

I suppose it's remotely possible that some of these exist solely for the shock value, but my observations suggest that no, someone is actually getting off on this.

TheBobSays · Venter Joined: 19 Jun 2005 Posts: 236

Is this like, for real? I don't do any kind of online gaming so I guess it's hard for me to grasp on the thought that there's stuff like this actually out there.

How do these people make these things? I mean, it's so....weird I really can't believe it exists.

Heaven only knows, if the furry 'adult' areas are this odd, I shudder to think of what the 'normal' adult areas would be like.

People need to get out more, if they got the talent to make giant herm dragons on their own, they are really wasting their time.

Yes, such things exist. If you actually want to see some of the non-horrors, I could post screenshots. Or direct you to a site that has them. They're mostly worksafe, but mostly boring and in-jokes as well.

As far as how, there's an in-game editor to make objects out of simple shapes (cubes, spheres, cylinders--called prims). Textures are uploaded (Jpegs or Targas), as are sounds and poser animations. Scripting is done in a mutant derivative of C.

As to why? As a hobby, or make money (That's the scary part, really), or yes escapism. Pretty much the same reasons people make mucks, mushes, or web sites.

Adult areas is something I'm not too familiar with, but from what I've seen, yeah, they're shudder-worthy. Think night clubs that are ugly boxes, with private rooms that have beds. "Pose Balls" (Objects that have scripts on them such that you can use them to sit in a chair or whatever position) are in place so essentially, you have the two avatars looped in whatever saucy animation, while the chat boils down to the same old text sex.

I will note that it is more the norm than the exception to 'buy' items than make them from scratch. The same artwork commission/purchase mechanism is at work, here. You have people making good, clean stuff (Dragon avatar or what have you). You have people making smut (Genitalia attachments). Then the person you see walking around has bought both, through no talent of their own.

Okay, so yeah. I'm being an apologist on this. Mostly because I know I waste my time making scripts there. But it's fun for me.

LoKi · Venter Joined: 09 Mar 2005 Posts: 262

The worst part is that we're far to lazy to even post like 85% of the fucked up shit from the furry sims in that community.. a lot of it is "seen this before syndrom" but occasionaly we'll get some idiot that blows everything out of the water...

TheBobSays · Venter Joined: 19 Jun 2005 Posts: 236

The worst part is that we're far to lazy to even post like 85% of the fucked up shit from the furry sims in that community.. a lot of it is "seen this before syndrom" but occasionaly we'll get some idiot that blows everything out of the water...

Meh. That's just Sturgeon's Law (90% of everything is crap) in action. And when it gets to be like shooting fish in a barrel, it's no longer funny, or fun. It's simply a waste of time to even point it out. (Am I correct in extending this to state that "Worst of the Web" sites have declined?)

Slightly offtopic, but there's a point. The thing that bugged me most about Random on the mucks was not his mocking of others. It was that he had no aspirations or drive to lead by example, or even generate an understanding of why things sucked. Not even an entertaining parody. Criticism without construction gets old quickly.

LoKi · Venter Joined: 09 Mar 2005 Posts: 262

Funny part is, I made over $300 USD from selling stuff I coded for SecondLife. And I payed $10 for the game. Best part is, apart from coding the stuff - I don't anything except sell the money. :O

SquareMoogle · Vociferator Joined: 16 Dec 2004 Posts: 357

With my mediocre coding skills, I'm actually interested in exploiting idiots over the internet. (As evidenced by my RO server linked in my sig.) So what I'd like to know, are there any charges I might incur outside of the 10 flat?

Facepuncher · Qualificator Joined: 21 Jun 2005 Posts: 6

Love the game, hate some of the players. (Let's dress up in bad virtual fursuits and fuck!) for the furries, (Let's dress up in wigger clotheing with bling on and fuck!) for the other SL residents.

And to answer the question, Unless you wanna own land (you can always share land with a friend and have mod permissions) you only have to pay 9 dollars once. And then you receive a weekly "Stipend" (amount of virtual money so you can have some spending power without having to sell everything you make or get a job) after that, monthly paying users get a larger stipend.

So yep, all you have to really pay is the one time fee.

It's sad to see the SL engine used to make crude fuckscenes in all honest, same with people makeing themselves look like a bronzed god with a Dream home and a yacht instead of makeing something unique. (So damn annoying, for every original avatar and building, I see 20 more pretentious places.)

Now for something relevant.

http://img296.echo.cx/img296/5990/enoughmetalyet2ww.jpg

Like a goddamn member of KISS with a mascot head on.

RailFoxen · Vociferator Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 625

It's possible to create some really awesome things in Second Life. Work like that makes crap like this look even more ridiculous. I posted this earlier this year, but those that missed it:

My original character plan was to rebuild Ren, but two things prevented that: One, you can't import models and I sure as hell wasn't going to rebuild the model with primitives. Two, turns out the game has a certain sub culture that playing a moogle wouldn't help me avoid. Do what you will, I'll just be over here.

But there are some good opportunities to make Furcadia-like bank. As we all know that 'a furry and his money are easily parted', 'twould only take enough effort to lovingly render a better looking dog cock than what's already on the market. There's an interesting industry, people here selling to furries: FURRORIST GROUPS SELL DOG COCKS TO RAISE FUNDS.

(I'll probably edit this with a picture when I get FTP access.)

TheBobSays · Venter Joined: 19 Jun 2005 Posts: 236

But there are some good opportunities to make Furcadia-like bank. As we all know that 'a furry and his money are easily parted', 'twould only take enough effort to lovingly render a better looking dog cock than what's already on the market. There's an interesting industry, people here selling to furries: FURRORIST GROUPS SELL DOG COCKS TO RAISE FUNDS.

A bank? As in deposit money and get interest type? I know/hang out with people that have made such a thing. No dog cocks, though.

(I swear, some day, I will script up Brian's engine to run)

Dogthing · Vociferator Joined: 26 Oct 2003 Posts: 700

A bank? As in deposit money and get interest type? I know/hang out with people that have made such a thing.

No, I think he means "make bank" as in 'a lot of money'. It's an expression, though it's not used that often.

RailFoxen · Vociferator Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 625

Right, make money. Furcadia makes loads of cash off the furries and has rather little to spend in terms of costs. I've said I wish I'd thought of it first. Furries are an awesome market because, unlike most consumers, they have little sense of quality. A $300 product in an electronic market would take months or years of R&D time and have a high overhead in production, plus the price of continued support and legal. A $300 product in a furry market is about a week of a single artist or programmer's time with no production or support cost. Once time has been invested, the product costs the developer exactly nothing to offer.

A minor side note, even venerable celebrities like Nexxus prance about on SL wearing their erect penises. Hail the furry Internet revolution, if you will.

Beauty of Nature · Prattler Joined: 29 May 2005 Posts: 178

Some of the images made fall off my chair laughing and some made my eyes bleed.
There is no god.

baserock love · Vociferator Joined: 04 Dec 2004 Posts: 685

Here's a couple of gems from SL herald

"Not discussed were the even stranger politics of a Second Life gay furry harem and how they have all moved in together in real life after knowing each other for two weeks online."

If that weren't bad enough :x

"Never mentioned was how the Master of the now-real-life group (yes, it's a gay, furry, BDSM harem) forbids STD testing, 'meatbag' clothes and jobs or contact with the outside world."

The only things that bug me about that second track i quoted is the std testing and the fact that i don't know what "meatbag clothes" are.

I assume the furries that did this already had no contact with the outside world or jobs to begin with but no std testing? I think it's safe to assume that any master that would make such a rule is probably crawling with the clap, aids, herpes, jaundice, west nile etc. and wants to keep his secret.

One way or the other this will end in disaster.

TheBobSays · Venter Joined: 19 Jun 2005 Posts: 236

A minor side note, even venerable celebrities like Nexxus prance about on SL wearing their erect penises. Hail the furry Internet revolution, if you will.

One of the programming tricks is that you can set something transparent. Either by setting its opacity to 0, or giving it a texture that is completely transparent. For editing purposes, and placement, there is a way to reveal the transparent objects, or more specifically, give them a red hue. It's useful for making sure normally hidden things are aligned.

That's what you're seeing with this NSFW

Now... Why is it that people (1) will wear genitalia set transparent in public instead of detaching them, (2) and when someone mentions turning on highlight transparent when building, they will warn to not turn on highlight (of course, leading MORE people to look) and (3) forget that they can simply detach said object, hiding it a lot faster than saying, 'Don't look!'...

I try to avoid the stupid people, but they find me, anyways!

Tass · Prattler Joined: 05 Mar 2005 Posts: 178

Here's a couple of gems from SL herald

"Not discussed were the even stranger politics of a Second Life gay furry harem and how they have all moved in together in real life after knowing each other for two weeks online."

If that weren't bad enough :x

"Never mentioned was how the Master of the now-real-life group (yes, it's a gay, furry, BDSM harem) forbids STD testing, 'meatbag' clothes and jobs or contact with the outside world."

The only things that bug me about that second track i quoted is the std testing and the fact that i don't know what "meatbag clothes" are.

NOOOOO!
THEY USED THE WORD MEATBAG..

That's only applicable to sentient AI and robots!
THOSE BASTARDS.
And without jobs, I have this feeling they won't really be living to long..
Seeing as things need FOOD to live..
And lacking contact with the outside world?
Man, sounding more and more like a massive slave trade scheme.

AngryPuritan · Needs to get out more Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 1361

NOOOOO!
THEY USED THE WORD MEATBAG..

That's only applicable to sentient AI and robots!
THOSE BASTARDS.

Aren't animals made of meat too? In fact, moreso often times? Damn, more proof furries ruin EVERYTHING.

And without jobs, I have this feeling they won't really be living to long..
Seeing as things need FOOD to live..

And drugs to fight the STDs...

Man, sounding more and more like a massive slave trade scheme.

Well, if you were going to buy someone as a slave, wouldn't it make senseto get someone who liked to be a slave?

mouse · Needs to get out more Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 1192

"Never mentioned was how the Master of the now-real-life group (yes, it's a gay, furry, BDSM harem) forbids STD testing, 'meatbag' clothes and jobs or contact with the outside world."

The only things that bug me about that second track i quoted is the std testing and the fact that i don't know what "meatbag clothes" are.

If true, i think this means there is a house somewhere full of constantly naked male furries involved in some terrible furry bondage slave sex-cult.

And wow that is a fucking scary thought right there. :?

Monkey King · Vociferator Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 459

If true, i think this means there is a house somewhere full of constantly naked male furries involved in some terrible furry bondage slave sex-cult.

And wow that is a fucking scary thought right there. :?

Naw, that's not the scary part. I'm too jaded to be shocked at the thought of such a thing.

The scary part is that somewhere there is a house full of constantly naked male furries engaging in some terrible furry bondage sex-cult, and they're not breaking any laws.

Tailgunner · Vociferator Joined: 28 Oct 2003 Posts: 327

"Never mentioned was how the Master of the now-real-life group (yes, it's a gay, furry, BDSM harem) forbids STD testing, 'meatbag' clothes and jobs or contact with the outside world."

The only things that bug me about that second track i quoted is the std testing and the fact that i don't know what "meatbag clothes" are.

If true, i think this means there is a house somewhere full of constantly naked male furries involved in some terrible furry bondage slave sex-cult.

And wow that is a fucking scary thought right there. :?

And you beat off to that thought every night mouse. You can't bullshit me!

:twisted:

Barry Scott · Prattler Joined: 09 May 2005 Posts: 152

I've always ummed and ahhed about joining Second life. On one hand it sounds like a lot of fun. TOO much fun in fact. Things like this take my attention off shit that needs doing. Also, well shit like this that was shown. Is it possible to hit other characters? If I can render a cricket bat and twat people with it I might consider it. Also the "make money" thing has got me interested. Not THAT hot at 3d tho… not any good at 2d so that's not a problem. I can code tho. Also I've had this silly idea of rendering Ivan Dobsky and Mr Hoppy and bounce around playing his theme tune and confuse the crap out of Americans.

EFudd · Prattler Joined: 12 May 2005 Posts: 140

Barry Scott,

I'm going to try to play second life to get an idea of the madness of it. If I find a cricket bat you will be the first to know, but you gotta promise not to smack the one american that finds it for you, kay?

:EDIT:
Actually if you decide to get into the game perhaps we could make a trade. A double-barreled shotgun with wood stock for a wooden cricket bat.

TheBobSays · Venter Joined: 19 Jun 2005 Posts: 236

I've always ummed and ahhed about joining Second life. On one hand it sounds like a lot of fun. TOO much fun in fact. Things like this take my attention off shit that needs doing. Also, well shit like this that was shown. Is it possible to hit other characters? If I can render a cricket bat and twat people with it I might consider it. Also the "make money" thing has got me interested. Not THAT hot at 3d tho… not any good at 2d so that's not a problem. I can code tho. Also I've had this silly idea of rendering Ivan Dobsky and Mr Hoppy and bounce around playing his theme tune and confuse the crap out of Americans.

Full disclosure: I'm heavily biased, and chat a lot with lindens (admin/paid staff).

Yes, it can be a very bad time-waster. Horrifically bad, really.

(Links might not be worksafe.)

Yes, it's possible to hit characters either through throwing objects at them (There is a physics engine), or using scripted objects. Guns that fire bullets are common, and I have seen large bats, as well as cliched things like light sabres. http://secondlife.com/badgeo/wakka.php?wakka=dynamics talks about the commands scripts can use. Be forewarned, however that it is possible to be banned through abusing these commands.

The whole make money thing still confuses my sensibilities, but you can make 3D objects that others can buy, be it avatars, vehicles, houses, or 2D textures to be used as clothes, or programmed scripts that do things.

Since the game is set up to reward dwell, or people hanging around on your land, one can run a dance club with no talent whatsoever (And it shows!) Included in that economy is DJs (Streaming music is supported in-game) as well as instructors, event organizers, etc.

Others have made money in the purchase and sale of land or money, speculating on that semi-limited resource. And of course, although I haven't heard of furries doing this, (But I'm not one to find out) some make money from the world's oldest profession. In my bias, however, I will write this off as something that came from The Sims Online.

DracoXII · Qualificator Joined: 05 Aug 2005 Posts: 16

I know a few people who play Second Life and bug me constanly to get on it, have for a while now, right from the start of SL you could tell the furries would soon beexited over it,Im confused why any one would really play this personaly I find my first life interesting enough, I dont intent to ever play a second Life.

I know my art is non to reputable but I was out of the blue presented with this... http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b257/DracoXII/Yuki.jpg
This character is one of mine and even with my dudbious art of her I was horrified to see this, its scary and they expected me to like it.
Its monsterous and there are several other mario morphed creations wandering around I've been shown.

Monkey King · Vociferator Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 459

I was on Second Life very briefly.

Think of all those shitty personal websites from the late 90s, that Something Awful occasionally still features in their Awful Link of the Day. Imagine what such a site would look like were it a physical, 3D location. Now imagine an entire game environment filled with these player-created, shitty 3D websites. That's what Second Life is like.

In short, the problem with SL is that the players are allowed to create things.

DracoXII · Qualificator Joined: 05 Aug 2005 Posts: 16

Yeah, you might have heard the ideas from others about how certain games should have been made or what others would have done, despite how excited over them they are you just really know its not going to work, SL just gives them easily the opportunity to do this.. its a real bad idea to give these tools to the hands of most people online.. let allone the furres.

Captious Tyro · Rasophore Joined: 06 Aug 2005 Posts: 51

After seeing stuff like that I'm glad that my old POS comp couldnt run SL, in a similar bit of luck it wouldn't run Evercrack either... I must have some sort of gaming guardian angel... or just a really old computer.

LoKi · Venter Joined: 09 Mar 2005 Posts: 262

I still find it hilarious that I make money off weapons and other things that I coded that end up with people trolling others with these things...

My favorite PM in game was from some random person telling me that a friend of theirs was becoming suicidal because another person was stalking them in-game using my spy microphones... I laughed. They wanted me to make something that would stop that but meh, I'm too lazy and I make enough L$ to sell to IGE as is anyways. :>

Captious Tyro · Rasophore Joined: 06 Aug 2005 Posts: 51

http://slofshive.caesium2.com/index.php?section=gamemods

Not second life, but along the same lines. Didn't want to start another thread uselessly. More proof that furries ruin everything.

There's also some "erotic" Giger styles aliens elsewhere on the page.

RailFoxen · Vociferator Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 625

These are completely nude races, with visible genitalia, they are done for my own pleasure first and foremost. If this bothers anyone, deal with it or don't download it. <...> I have also supplied 3 esp files offering some more correctly reptilian ones, lacking the boobs and willies, plus a 'civilised' version of both beast races - this should allow the mod to cater for all tastes.

I also (purists take note), find no fault in, “their endowed attributes” as this also is a natural evolutionary process to ensure species survival. This truth holds, in any species, from amoebas, to birds, amphibians, reptiles, and of course mammals. The more evolved the species, the more evolved the, “selection”.

Yah, nude versions of the other Morrowind races have been around for some time, it was just a matter of time (and this is about five months old) until some creep decided to hit the 'furry' races.

Just waiting for an anatomically nude moogle now.

SquareMoogle · Vociferator Joined: 16 Dec 2004 Posts: 357

Shh, my secret mod is not to be discussed in public.

Though I highly doubt this person is actually aware of the furry fandumb, seeing as how he is a Vampire the Masquerade freak first and foremost.

Griphonix · Prattler Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 165

There's also some "erotic" Giger styles aliens elsewhere on the page.

You haven't seen much of Giger's art, have you?

Dogthing · Vociferator Joined: 26 Oct 2003 Posts: 700

I've got a SL account laying around somewhere. Maybe now that my DSL is upgraded and it doesn't run like utter shit, I can dust it off and start screwing around.

Captious Tyro · Rasophore Joined: 06 Aug 2005 Posts: 51

You haven't seen much of Giger's art, have you?

Not much, but from what I've seen it's usually fucked up enough to be considered edgy. That guy just has the aliens beating off etc., not exactally as creative as the Giger peices I've seen.

Paul · Needs to get out more Joined: 01 Feb 2004 Posts: 1092

I've got a SL account laying around somewhere. Maybe now that my DSL is upgraded and it doesn't run like utter shit, I can dust it off and start screwing around.

Screwing around? You might want to rephrase that... :wink:

Captious Tyro · Rasophore Joined: 06 Aug 2005 Posts: 51

http://us.vclart.net/vcl/Artists/Blue-Von/Adult/

yet more second life crap not too attrocious, but on topic

baserock love · Vociferator Joined: 04 Dec 2004 Posts: 685

http://us.vclart.net/vcl/Artists/Blue-Von/Adult/

yet more second life crap not too attrocious, but on topic

Um, computerized dog penises and furrys urinating on stuff is pretty much my DEFENITION of attrocious. That link is very NSFW

Captious Tyro · Rasophore Joined: 06 Aug 2005 Posts: 51

whoops sorry for leaving off the NSFW warning, I suppose the "adult" subdirectory wasn't obvious enough (no sarcasm intended) I probably should reread the posting rules.

I thought that stuff was pretty tame by furry standards :shock:

baserock love · Vociferator Joined: 04 Dec 2004 Posts: 685

whoops sorry for leaving off the NSFW warning, I suppose the "adult" subdirectory wasn't obvious enough (no sarcasm intended) I probably should reread the posting rules.

I thought that stuff was pretty tame by furry standards :shock:

A lot of it was. Urine however is edging toward extreme. If he was urinating into the gangrenous leg wound of a six titted hermaphroditic snow leopard that would qualify as extreme. Tame though? I don't think urination could qualify as tame in any fetish, even furry.

Captious Tyro · Rasophore Joined: 06 Aug 2005 Posts: 51

I've talked to a handfull of BDSMers who seem to think that urine play was no big deal. Of course by definition BDSMers are kind of extreme... not exactally the most normal of people lol. Dunno, guess I'm just not easily disgusted by stuff like that any more, it's probably just because I expect absolute horrors to be present in furry "art".

TheBobSays · Venter Joined: 19 Jun 2005 Posts: 236

I've talked to a handfull of BDSMers who seem to think that urine play was no big deal. Of course by definition BDSMers are kind of extreme... not exactally the most normal of people lol. Dunno, guess I'm just not easily disgusted by stuff like that any more, it's probably just because I expect absolute horrors to be present in furry "art".

John Venn would have a pretty diagram here, but I'm too lazy to do such a thing right now. Instead, I'll say that, given two subcultures, A and B, there are four resulting groups:

Those in A.
Those in B.
Those in both A and B.
Those in neither A nor B.

Regardless of how large or small the groups are, or how mentally healthy membership in the groups is, this is the breakdown.

Applying it here, it's guaranteed that you'll find someone who finds the strangest things completely normal, and what you find normal very bizarre.