Crush...Yiff...Destroy!

Banrai · Vociferator Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 314

Do furries just NOT do ANY sort of research on how an animal lookes before creating it?

Alright, I can understand stuff like Sonic fan character enchinada-however-its-spelt things looking JUST LIKE SONIC but... What the hell is going on with thes animals that don't look even REMOTELY like what they're supposed to.

I came across this on VCL:
I always loved the way Sonic fan characters look, it's so cute. And because this rusty character hasn't actually been given a defined species yet, why not draw her as a hedgehog? I think I like it more than my yoshi and human versions of her. XD In fact, I know I do. So enjoy the annoyingly bright and colorful Apricot Hedgehog~

http://us-p.vclart.net/vcl/Artists/Coral-Yoshi/ApricotHedgehog.jpg

...Ok, so reading the desc I look at the thumbnail and it doesn't really look sonic styled, so I'm thinking MAYBE OMG A REALISTIC LIKE HEDGEHOG.

But... WTF. It looks like a KITTEN. And while I assure you, Stoneth, that kittens are just fine and dandy, I usually like to think that a HEDGEHOG and a KITTEN are not that easily confused.

ANYONE ELSE SEE THE DIFFERENCE?

Stoneth · Vociferator Joined: 01 Dec 2004 Posts: 545

Whether she was trying to make a hedgehog or a cat (Sonic style or non-Sonic style) I think the artist failed misserably. It's one thing to create a Sonic style character because Sonic characters are highly stylized. Let's see now...

Hedgehog ...

Cat.
Both Sonic style...

Yeah... this looks nothing like a hedgehog. And I do agree that artists should study more about an animal before they attempt to draw it (let alone stylize it), but recall the numbah won rule in furrydom: when in doubt, it's a fox.

Dr. Mojo · Prattler Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 180

Oh Christ. Coral Yoshi. I've encountered her before. Yeah, she's mildly confused about how things look.

Skunkfuckers Inc. · Needs to get out more Joined: 20 Jan 2004 Posts: 980

Oh Christ. Coral Yoshi. I've encountered her before. Yeah, she's mildly confused about how things look.

Well, I can't say much since she's got me beat on skill level, but..

Yesh, that looks like kitten, doesn't look 'Sonic-styled', and looks more like generic big-headed-but-not-superdeformed style :?

Still kind of cute though, and I like the colors for her hair.

Paul · Vociferator Joined: 01 Feb 2004 Posts: 551

It's not too uncommon that furry artists operate with a few basic animal types - cat, dog, fox, mostly - and everything else they draw just looks like a variation of that. In some cases, it's down to a deliberate choice, but mostly it's sheer ineptitude and/or laziness. Drawing, after all, is mainly the art of observing, of seeing how real things look and then making an interpretation. But if you never observe real animals but only Sonic games, how would you know how to interpret a hedgehog?

Observe real life, and you can make animal characters that are actually caricatures of real animals like in this page by Michel Plessix. Now, Plessix is an expert draughtsman, but you don't really have to be. Lewis Trondheim, who's by no means technically brilliant, draws highly stylized animals - basically human bodies with an animal head - and it's never the less totally clear what species each character is, like in this cover for one of Trondheim's recent comics.

Again, it just comes down to oh-so-many furry "artists" not having any real desire to make any effort to grow as an artist; they're happy with doing the same three animals in the same five poses over and over again.

ZenZhu · TOP POSTER! Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 1510

This brings us to one of the big risks of starting to draw seeking to emulate a particular artist's style. While everyone starts to learn by basically copying or at least learning something from other artists' examples, there's a danger with focusing in on any one style... especially one that his highly stylized like the Sonic house style. If that's all you draw, you'll find it hard to shift away from that if you ever decide to move on to other things.

The most capable cartoonists are typically skilled artists in their own right. For example, most anime artists can draw classic portraits and still lifes and such. They're not limited by the anime style, because they can draw more than that. When you're a bit more "classically trained," you have the advantage of being able to alter your style to suit what you want or need to draw. If you trained yourself up on Sonic the Hedgehog or other highly stylized looks, you'll find it hard to break the mold.

Obviously the original Sonic designers didn't want a realistic hedgehog. They wanted a cute and marketable character to be the spokescharacter for Sega and compete with Mario. Most likely being capable artists, they were able to design a character with a sort of generic enough look it could have been anything.. but tailored it to have representational spines. The Sonic style isn't so much a depiction of the particular animals as a stylized representation... like caricature art almost. Once they established the Sonic family, they were able to add characters like Amy Rose that is really just a hedgehog by association rather than looks. But, the could get away with it because the had established Sonic's "hedgehogness," so they could just say Amy = girlie kiddie Sonic = hedgehog.

Most furries don't care about drawing animals to resemble their real-life counterparts. They're concerned with drawing them to look yiffy. Take the typical furry bat. It looks like little more than fox with long ears... a fennec with wings, fundamentally. Obviously, in real life, even the flying fox bats don't look like foxes.. they look more like aye-ayes. Outside of those few types, bats don't resemble foxes. They're cute in an ugly kind of way, though.

But, bats, rhinos, elephants, etc... animals that many people like.. but aren't necessarily "cute" don't register on most furries' radar screens. Not only are they hard to draw correctly.. anthro or not... but they're hard to draw cute, which is the main goal of most furry artists.

Cats, foxes, canines, and wolves have instant appeal. Animal lovers already like them because they're already cute and fluffy. Rhinos, elephants, aardvarks, and such can prove to be rewardingly challenging... and it's a good feeling when you have successfully captured the essence of an animal in your characters. In truth, no animal is really hard to draw cute and cartoony and right. You just have to look for what characteristics make that animal look the way it does.. its ear structure, its structure, its build, etc. If you try and take a generic furry face and slap an elephant nose on it, it just doesn't work.

Cats, foxes, and canines offer a quick fix. It's like those "do it yourself" craft birdhouses that come with the pre-cut wood pannels, paint, and even lines printed on the wood to tell you where to paint. The true artist, furry or not, would know how to craft their animal or animal character in the same way a craftsman could build a birdhouse with little more than a pencil, ruler, wood, and saw.

I used a bat simply because it's one of the easiest comparisons to make. On the left, you see what I'd deem a "furry" bat. It looks like little more than a fox.. more like a jackal IMO... the ears are maybe a little bigger, but other than that, there's little to distinguish it since there's no wings to say THIS IS A BAT, NOT A FOXJACKAL!

On the right is a bat more like I draw it. Obviously, I haven't gone so far as to draw something like a horseshoe bat, but at least attempted to make it bat-like. You can see that there aren't many differences. The nose is a little shorter, since most bats, save for the largest of the flying foxes, have pretty stubby faces. The nose has been changed some to suggest a bat nose, while not being one of the secondary radar dishes that many bats have for noses. The ears are where one subtle detail can make the difference. Rather than the pointed fox ears vaguely attached to the head and turned off to the side, I make a point of directing the bat's ears forward, since most bats' ears face forward more rigidly. Even though they're not as exaggerated as the furry bat-fox's ears, the details and focus placed on them makes them feature more prominently... since bat heads are often little more than a set of ears with eyes and a mouth put somewhere in between.

Banrai · Vociferator Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 314

Ah, ZenZhu, I'm actually kind of happy you used a bat in your example. Something happened to me once, which kind of goes along the same lines as what I was talking about in my earlier post.

At one point, I had posted this particular image on DeviantART:

at which someone replied something along the lines of:

You should make the ears smaller and the face longer! She doens't look like a pat, a real anthro bat would look like this!

And they had a link to this crapp ass bat thing that loked like a cat/fox/whatever. I was absolutely floored, and linked back with a few hotoso fo bats... I kean, yeah, Iknow my art's not that hot, but at least /I/ think she looks like a bat.

ZenZhu · TOP POSTER! Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 1510

Actually, she looks like a bat version of a nekogirl, IMO. She's obviously predominantly humanoid, save mostly for the ears. They were probably thinking "real anthro bat" in terms of a "yiffy anthro bat". Let's face it, if a bat ever became humanoid, it would be pretty fugly. Take the new Man-Bat figure from the recent "The Batman" animated series -

Obviously, it's not a "real" anthro bat if by "real" you mean something furries could jack off to. Personally, I like it. I've been sorely tempted to get it.

Your picture looks to me like something Brian Froud might draw.. and that's a good thing.

Banrai · Vociferator Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 314

WOW that's a kick ass action figure. :)

Actually, my bat character is supposed to be more humanoid. She's my Pooka from a changeling game my husband made me play in. :D

Genghis · Venter Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 277

WOW that's a kick ass action figure. :)

Actually, my bat character is supposed to be more humanoid. She's my Pooka from a changeling game my husband made me play in. :D

o hay another changeling player

I've had great fun on various discussion fora with that particular game, mostly on topics such as "stop fagging up the pooka you furry faggots".

That and trolling otherkin groups by telling them it's only a game, since C:tD seems to be their main source of mythological information.

Banrai · Vociferator Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 314

I've had great fun on various discussion fora with that particular game, mostly on topics such as "stop fagging up the pooka you furry faggots".

That and trolling otherkin groups by telling them it's only a game, since C:tD seems to be their main source of mythological information.

I can't say I've played much on the whole online-post-forum things, I never really got how they worked. But Changeling is my favourite WW game, despite teh fact that like.. NO ONE around here ever wants to play with me.

And I would think Werewolf would be more popular, especially some of the offshouts like Hengeyokai (the eastern sourcebook) and stuff like that. You know, the whole OMG KITSUNE OMG. I mean, seriousley, look at the back cover:

It's even got an uglyass furry on it. ;.;

AngryPuritan · Vociferator Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 399

They don't even do foxes correctly half the time. I personally think that they would probably look more like the kitsune off the Magic cards (call me nerdy, go ahead).

I would show a picture, but it seems my google skills are lacking.

Skunkfuckers Inc. · Needs to get out more Joined: 20 Jan 2004 Posts: 980

I used a bat simply because it's one of the easiest comparisons to make. On the left, you see what I'd deem a "furry" bat. It looks like little more than a fox.. more like a jackal IMO... the ears are maybe a little bigger, but other than that, there's little to distinguish it since there's no wings to say THIS IS A BAT, NOT A FOXJACKAL!

On the right is a bat more like I draw it. Obviously, I haven't gone so far as to draw something like a horseshoe bat, but at least attempted to make it bat-like. You can see that there aren't many differences. The nose is a little shorter, since most bats, save for the largest of the flying foxes, have pretty stubby faces. The nose has been changed some to suggest a bat nose, while not being one of the secondary radar dishes that many bats have for noses. The ears are where one subtle detail can make the difference. Rather than the pointed fox ears vaguely attached to the head and turned off to the side, I make a point of directing the bat's ears forward, since most bats' ears face forward more rigidly. Even though they're not as exaggerated as the furry bat-fox's ears, the details and focus placed on them makes them feature more prominently... since bat heads are often little more than a set of ears with eyes and a mouth put somewhere in between.

It's posts like that that make me sad you've only got less than a hundred posts (a week or two, maybe) before you have to leave us :(

At one point, I had posted this particular image on DeviantART:

......:shock:

yeah, Iknow my art's not that hot,

You got me beat :oops:

BeanBall · Apocrisiary Joined: 09 Feb 2005 Posts: 44

Man, that cat in that picture with the hedgehog looks almost like one of my cats.

Btw, is it true that you need to wash your hands after handling hedgehogs because you can get salmonela (sp?) from them (like you need to wash your hands after handling turtles and other reptiles)

There is one thing I wonder about hegies and porcupines. With those quills, spikes or whatever on their backs, just how do they er, make babies? Seriouslly, I'm not asking for perverted reasons, just curiousness. And no, I don't want to see any pics of them preforming the act. I just heard that a hedgehog has a delicate belly so I'd think those quills on the back would be quite painfull for the male heggie.

Kadius · Vociferator Joined: 10 Feb 2004 Posts: 637

Take the new Man-Bat figure from the recent "The Batman" animated series-
.

Arg! What did they do to him?

I think I saw every episode of that series... five times. :(

Dr. Dos · Venter Joined: 11 Oct 2004 Posts: 244

With those quills, spikes or whatever on their backs, just how do they er, make babies?

<MadTom> Since artificial sweeteners are excreted in urine, consuming artificial sweetener before urine play can lend a sweet taste to the urine. Drinking diet soda, or other beverages containing artifical sweetener, before urine play will have the dual effect of diluting the urine and sweetening it. However, if you taste sugar in you or your partner's urine and you or your partner have not consumed artifi
<MadTom> cial sweetener, this may be a sign of diabetes and you should see a doctor.
<MadTom> Male porcupines use urine to soften the females' quills before mating. Male elephants urinate on themselves, and roll in urine-filled mud as a method of attracting females.
<MadTom> Note to self: piss on uniform prior to work

On the internet you can find anything, but it's easier to wait for somebody to do the work for you.

Now I will sit here and wait for somebody to find some furry porcupine watersports porn.

Banrai · Vociferator Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 314

mouse · Needs to get out more Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 1030

With those quills, spikes or whatever on their backs, just how do they er, make babies?

<MadTom> Since artificial sweeteners are excreted in urine, consuming artificial sweetener before urine play can lend a sweet taste to the urine. Drinking diet soda, or other beverages containing artifical sweetener, before urine play will have the dual effect of diluting the urine and sweetening it. However, if you taste sugar in you or your partner's urine and you or your partner have not consumed artifi
<MadTom> cial sweetener, this may be a sign of diabetes and you should see a doctor.
<MadTom> Male porcupines use urine to soften the females' quills before mating. Male elephants urinate on themselves, and roll in urine-filled mud as a method of attracting females.

Not really pertaining to anything in particular ... but this thread is reminding me of something I was told one time ;

The only thing can change the taste of a male's semen is eating lots of pineapples.

AngryPuritan · Vociferator Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 399

And where have we learned all these wonderful sexual facts?

Here's a hint, starts with an 'F'.

weird_guy_in_the_corner · Venter Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 258

At one point, I had posted this particular image on DeviantART:

Skunkfuckers Inc. · Needs to get out more Joined: 20 Jan 2004 Posts: 980

And where have we learned all these wonderful sexual facts?

Here's a hint, starts with an 'F'.

Lovelines, with Adam Carolla and Dr. Drew

or.. something.

(if by "F" you meant actual real life "fucking", with another person, um... you got me lost there)

2Shae · Qualificator Joined: 17 Feb 2005 Posts: 8

A good friend of mines charecter is a bat, and her charecter actually LOOKS like one. I mean, she has the ears, the nose, and the wings perfect like a leaf-nosed bat. The only thing different is her charecter is about oh...15 feet and huge like a monster 8)
Another friends bat charecter is well, just like the "furry" bat.

AngryPuritan · Vociferator Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 399

Lovelines, with Adam Carolla and Dr. Drew

or.. something.

(if by "F" you meant actual real life "fucking", with another person, um... you got me lost there)

I was thinking strange sexual facts would be more typically learned in thy yonder fandumb. Especiallythat watersports one.

MonicaKitty · Vociferator Joined: 24 Feb 2005 Posts: 450

You know, in defense of the bat-fans...there IS the flying fox bat, which looks a lot like, well, a fox with wings. Sigh...I'm actually defending a furry, I should probably go lie down.

weird_guy_in_the_corner · Venter Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 258

Paul · Vociferator Joined: 01 Feb 2004 Posts: 551

You know, in defense of the bat-fans...there IS the flying fox bat, which looks a lot like, well, a fox with wings.

YIFFY!

Kadius · Vociferator Joined: 10 Feb 2004 Posts: 637

You know, in defense of the bat-fans...there IS the flying fox bat, which looks a lot like, well, a fox with wings.

YIFFY!

So now they can be yiffy little foxes and fly too!
I'm somewhat ashamed that I've always imagined my 'animal' self as a bat.

subversive · Prattler Joined: 30 Dec 2004 Posts: 180

You know, in defense of the bat-fans...there IS the flying fox bat, which looks a lot like, well, a fox with wings.

YIFFY!
So now they can be yiffy little foxes and fly too!
I'm somewhat ashamed that I've always imagined my 'animal' self as a bat.

You guys keep making the "secret revelation" type text so tiny, this is what it looks like on my screen:

Why are you ashamed to have your animal self as a bat? And why did you wind up chosing that specific species?

BeanBall · Apocrisiary Joined: 09 Feb 2005 Posts: 44

Course, it could also come from watching/reading Batman one too many times ;)

Kadius · Vociferator Joined: 10 Feb 2004 Posts: 637

You guys keep making the "secret revelation" <...>

It's kind of like finding a prize at the bottom of the box. You're excited until you realize just what it is.

Why are you ashamed to have your animal self as a bat? And why did you wind up chosing that specific species?

Uh.. hmm. I guess it's because most of the time they're drawn, they're done badly. That and they're not all that popular. To answer the second question, it's just a bunch of little things. I love the night and value hearing over sight. (Did you know that some blind people have learned how to use their hearing to see? They use this little handheld clicking thing, hell; they even ride bikes!) And I've always thought bats were pretty neat, it just seemed like a logical choice. That, and I'm told I have really long arms.

Course, it could also come from watching/reading Batman one too many times

I guess you could be right. Though I liked Croc more than Manbat. :)

MicahFennec · Coadjutor Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 71

Oooh, you've hit upon one of my own pet peeves - anthros that look nothing like what they're supposed to be (excluding the fact that they walk on two legs and wear clothes, of course)! I try very hard to make my own characters look like what species they are, and I get pretty annoyed when I see, say, a "fennec" that looks exactly like a red fox with big ears, or a rat that has no muzzle whatsoever, or a chinchilla with a skinny tufted tail. Fennecs don't have black ears and white tail tips! Chinchillas don't have gerbil tails! *sigh*

Just ask New Meat, he'll be happy to tell you how much I complain about incorrect markings and the like...though he just laughs at me and says "if it's already on two legs, wearing clothes, and speaking English, who cares what else is wrong?"

Anyway...just figured I'd vent a little.;P *goes back to lurk mode*

Mastertran · Prattler Joined: 07 Oct 2004 Posts: 174

Hell I was going to write a comic at one time called Ismail "Bat of the Thirty third century" but that kind of fell apart.

ZenZhu · TOP POSTER! Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 1510

The flying fox bats were what I had referred to in my post about the differences. They still don't look fully like foxes. Their eyes are larger (why I referenced an aye-aye) and the nose still has some telltale structure to it. Stellaluna (seen here from the animation, rather than the original book because it's closer to furry cartoon style), is a good example of how the fox bat can be cute and all, but still captured in a way that says NOT A FOX WITH WINGS.

Uh.. hmm. I guess it's because most of the time they're drawn, they're done badly. That and they're not all that popular. To answer the second question, it's just a bunch of little things. I love the night and value hearing over sight. (Did you know that some blind people have learned how to use their hearing to see? They use this little handheld clicking thing, hell; they even ride bikes!) And I've always thought bats were pretty neat, it just seemed like a logical choice. That, and I'm told I have really long arms.

I have used one when depicting myself on occasion (the "not so furry bat" is basically how I would draw myself in such cases) as one of the animals I use in my "most-fitting" category. I figured mostly because I have very good hearing for an adult.. having not blown out my eardrums during my teen years. (Is it just me, or are movies being played louder and louder... I'm gonna have to start taking foam earplugs to dampen the noise.) Also, my vision is pretty bad without my contacts, but it's very easy for me to get by without them (in my own home.. I wouldn't dare drive or anything) or even with no light. I can find my way around and usually reach for things with good accuracy without seeing them. My wife has also told me it fits some (not as well as a boar or rooster, though) simply because I have a good sense of what is around me. For example, in a crowded place, I can sidestep someone coming up behind me without turning to see them.

Although, that's hardly some kind of Daredevil hoodoovoodoo or something. I tend to use visual and audio clues many people don't pay attention to.. like seeing someone behind me in the store window in front of me, or hearing their footsteps.

Conversely, though, I have short arms. :)

The "fucked up" Man-bat isn't a revised version of the one from Batman: The Animated Series. I haven't seen it, but WB has done yet another version of Batman, simply calling it The Batman this time. That figure is the version of the Man-Bat from the new series, I'd guess.