Crush...Yiff...Destroy!

Talon · Qualificator Joined: 09 Apr 2005 Posts: 5

As a japanese animation(anime) geek I have sometimes wondered why anime has been accepted into the fold as just another of america's geeky fandoms while it seems furry will never gain even that level of modest acceptance. I’m not saying that furry doesn’t deserve what it is getting, I’m just interested in what it is about japanese animation that has saved it from the same fate.

It seems to me that anime has many of the same things that have dragged furry down, but somehow gotten away with it. They have fursuits, we have cosplay, they have yiff art, we have hentai, they have herms, we have dickgirls. Anything the furs have the Japanese have something just as bad. And it isn’t like we try to hide our perversion either. It’s out there and easy to find. It’s not that the “majority” of anime fans aren’t pervs either. I get the impression that 90% of anime fanboys(and girls) jerk it so some kind of hentai.

So, does anyone here have any theories on why anime has been “spared” to some degree?

Iconoclastic · Prattler Joined: 08 Mar 2005 Posts: 187

..because the artwork involves humans? :?

Tass · Qualificator Joined: 05 Mar 2005 Posts: 35

..because the artwork involves humans? :?

Not to mention, I cosplay..

It's alot less "PLAY" and alot more "COS"
As in, alot less "OMFG IN CHAR." And more to the extent of "Hey, I like this character SOOOO much, I decided to dress as Him/Her for a period of about 12 hours."
And besides, Cosplay sex is uncommon because cosplaying is EXPENSIVE.
Who the hell would want to waste a suit that you worked hard on with semen stains?

And besides kiddo, look at 4chan, the anime community is thirteen times as twisted..
Snuff films ain't got nothing on some of this stuff.

Computolio · Vociferator Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 631

Um, because it's a medium and not a fetish culture? It has a super-broad focus and basically amounts to an entire country's cartoon output? (as opposed to, you know, CRAZIES IN THE BASEMENT?)

Dr. Mojo · Prattler Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 180

Because the average Joe can be a fan of anime and remain completely oblivious of the tentacle rape. With furry, it's harder to do.

M0us3_Zero · Vociferator Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 366

Well, I can equate Anime's rise here in the US to the fact that about... oh... 75% of Anime Fans are blissfully unaware of the insanity that is Japanese Culture and it's... darkside.

The other 25%... They either hate the hentai so much they avoid it and stick to the clean stuff, or like a power-hungry sith lord, embrace the darkness.

Yes, there are American Pervs... just not as many as the Furverts, and not as vocal.

Trust me, I've seen what happens when a Hentai perv shows himself... It's brutal.

We watch our own.

We're still working on the fat guys in sailor suits. We keep them around for comedy purposes... but they're starting to irritate even the easily amused of us. >_<

RailFoxen · Venter Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 251

Anime has redeeming qualities. 'Nuff said.

To fill my weekly word quota, however: anime has pop-culture attraction, and enough outstanding works to firmly call it a medium instead of a culture. So from the artistic medium point of view. Akira, Armitage the Third, Iria, Vampire Hunter D... holy Christ, awesome in a VHS cassette. Furry, it seems, will never offer anything to match those titles. Graphic pictures of Asuka Langley with a dick don't much turn people who've seen Evangelion away from the genre, because Eva just has that awesome thing going for it. To the public, the anime form is great enough the rest of the fetishy shit can be safely ignored.

Furry, as a storytelling medium, doesn't have that kind of quality built up in the public eye. Video taking a distinctive anthropomorphic style includes... Disney's Robin Hood, Disney's Lion King, Disney's Brother Bear... and a handful of barely popular animated series, Wolf's Rain and such. To a casual fan of art and animation, there's nothing awesome enough in the mainstream to ignore the fetish.

So ask the average high school rube to name the first thing to mind from either medium. Anime - Dirty Pair? Anthro - Fox and the Hound? Tell him there's porn of both. Y'know, I think the porn made of the G-rated children's movie is going to draw a stronger reaction of disgust...

(And I didn't even get into the fandoms surrounding each. Step aside, Sailor Bob, it's Stalking Cat!)

Kadius · Vociferator Joined: 10 Feb 2004 Posts: 637

It's pretty obvious I'm an anime geek as well. While I have no good answer to this, I think it might be because the anime fandom doesn't consider anime a 24/7 thing. It's just something you do when you're bored or have free time. (I was just watching Bleach.) Furries tend to think of furrydum as a lifestyle/spiritual thing/expression of themselves. Sure, people look at and draw alot of weird stuff in the anime fandom; but they usually keep it to themselves. Instead of sharing their likes with others (even when they don't want to hear about it), like furries do.

And when you get down to it.
Anime wasn't based on Secret of Nimh, Tiny Toons or Disney movies. It was based on things like Robotech, Gundam and Akira. Anime fans (okay, the male ones) don't want to be a fluffy animal, they want to pilot a giant mech and destroy things or be a swordsman.

LoKi · Coadjutor Joined: 09 Mar 2005 Posts: 99

I think everyone has said it already but anime doesn't involve so much the sexual aspects like furry does.. Even though some of the anime shit is 10X worse than normal furry, that shit is such in a small minority that most people are too freaked out by it. Furry on the other hand, despite what a lot of the louder-mouthed furries, is about the sex a lot more. Add in the gay factor and it doesn't become appealing to most females and hence straight males....

I can equate furry to a sexually deviant cult while anime can be described as a fandom.

Talon · Qualificator Joined: 09 Apr 2005 Posts: 5

WOW! That was a fast response. It's been like what? An hour?

And besides, Cosplay sex is uncommon because cosplaying is EXPENSIVE. Who the hell would want to waste a suit that you worked hard on with semen stains?

Actually, even though I've never heard of cosplayers at cons screwing in their costumes, there is cosplay porn on the web with women having sex while dressed as anime characters.

And besides kiddo, look at 4chan, the anime community is thirteen times as twisted..
Snuff films ain't got nothing on some of this stuff.

Actually, I have been to 4chan a few times. I'm confused, are you trying to convince me that the anime community is twisted? Because I could have sworn I just posted that I think the same thing. In case I was unclear the first time, I do in fact believe that the anime community, that I am still a part of, is extremely twisted.

You do make a good point though Tass. Every cosplayer I have ever talked to drew a CLEAR distinction between themselves and the characters they were cosplaying.

Because the average Joe can be a fan of anime and remain completely oblivious of the tentacle rape. With furry, it's harder to do.

I have to disagree with you there. Anybody I've known who has been a fan of anime for more than a year and owns a computer has also known about anime's sicker side, and it gets allot worse than tentacle rape.

Well, I can equate Anime's rise here in the US to the fact that about... oh... 75% of Anime Fans are blissfully unaware of the insanity that is Japanese Culture and it's... darkside.

The other 25%... They either hate the hentai so much they avoid it and stick to the clean stuff, or like a power-hungry sith lord, embrace the darkness.

LOL! That's like the furries who say the vast majority of their fandom aren't perverts!

Ok, sorry. Maybe the anime fans you've encountered were different from the one's I've met. Or maybe yours is a different age group, but I think your stats are way off. I stick by what I said before, 90 percent of the anime fandom has enjoyed looking at hentai at some point. The percent that are into the most fucked up shit is of course, much lower, but the vast majority of fanboys and girls aren't above indulging in a dirty doujin from time to time.

Oh, and sailorsuit guys are disturbing.

Railfoxen, your answer was excellently stated. Thank you.

Kadius, your points were also good, but I would mention there are some people who do consider anime a 24/7 thing, and they are scary.

I want to thank everyone for their input so far, I'm finding this very interesting. I hope I'm not coming across as to much of an ass.

Michael Hirtes · Vociferator Joined: 04 Aug 2003 Posts: 793

Talon, I'll spell it out in very direct and simple terms.

The answer to your question can be condensed into two words: Mark Merlino.

(yeah yeah. I'm bitching about Merlino again, kids. Deal with it.)

To add some detail now, know that Mark Merlino was co-founder to the C/FO (Cartoon/Fantasy Organization), which was one of the first anime groups outside of Japan. If you ever come across any vintage C/FO material, you'll notice that the mascot is one of Mark's Skiltaire characters.

When the group got big, Mark tried to force his now-infamous militant gay agenda onto the group. The group counterreacted against it, and Mark was quickly drummed out.

In his exile, Mark discovered furrydumb, and he started up the same tactics there.

Unlike anime fandom, the furries didn't revolt, and before you know it, elevator walls got spooged on.

So yeah, anime fandom came close to becoming as messed up and sad as furrydumb is now. Good thing too. If Merlino succeeded with his agenda in anime fandom, chances are we never would have had stuff like TOONAMI or THE ANIME CHANNEL. This is why anime gets the big money sponsors while furries have to promise some cheesy airport hotel manager that there won't be any con-endorsed prostitution happening on their property.

M0us3_Zero · Vociferator Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 366

Well, then if what you say is true, Minnesota has a VERY GOOD batch of Anime fans. GO MINNESOTA! ^_^

Seriously, we don't like the freaks here. I've seen a couple, they usually end up on the bad end of the stick in the end.

Then again, me experiences with the aNime fandom have been 99.9% positive (except for that one run in with a purist who seemed to treat anime as a religion, one transvestite dressed up as Sailor Jupiter.)

Yes, I have a couple bad experiences, but the good overwhelm them.

So, I have a good community here. It breaks the norm. It happens.

(Edit: This post was for Talon.)

Dogthing · Vociferator Joined: 26 Oct 2003 Posts: 522

I watch some anime, but as far as I can tell, the rest of it's completely dumb or just fucked up. Anime fans however lean more towards "dumb" than "fucked up." How do I know this? I go to conventions.

Anime fans have a habit of being completely and utterly non-observant and totally uncreative when it comes to a social atmosphere. All I hear when I go to these cons are All Your Base jokes, references to Strong Bad (whose fans I REALLY FUCKING HATE EITHER WAY), talk about various newgrounds cartoons/games, or furry. Yeah, most anime kooks are mild anthro fans as well, just because they are chibi kawaii sugoi or whatever.

They suck at talking. They ramble about their favorite show, and forget that the person they're talking to is standing there (other than when they grasp them frantically when A REALLY EXCITING SUGOI PART COMES UP IN EPISODE #35). Or, conversely, they're quiet and fidgetty. Not in the 'cute' way either, in the damn creepy way is more like it.

And, the way they imagine themselves. We know furries have a problem with this, a BIG problem with this. Anime fans have it less so, but it's still there. Otaku males always seem to think they're warriors of some sort. They study "martial arts" (sitting by the road for 3 hours trying to make a spirit bomb), collect SUGOI SAMURAI NINJA BUSHIDO RONIN KATANA TANTOS, and appear to believe that with their heart of gold and fifteen reverse bladed katanas in each hand they can overcome any obstacle. Hurr.

Otaku females, on the other hand, try to display one of two horrible false personalities. One, the "innocently absentminded virgin girl" facade. They don't like gross things. They ask what "sex" is and what "hentai" is as if they didn't know as part of their GRANDE MAGICAL SCHEME. And whenever someone pokes fun at them, they pretend to pout like a five year old. Blech.

Two, the "I'm crazy i'll kill you LOL" girl. They try to be the craziest they can be!!!!! Well, since that usually involves wearing cat ears, hissing at people, and putting Happy Bunny stickers on their backpacks, I'm never inclined to take them seriously. "Watch out I stab people" Ha. "I'm psycho! I'm psycho, honest!" Ok. Yeah, see, fuck these people. Try on another personality sister, because this one's OLD and ANNOYING.

You can see all these and more if you go to any anime-based convention. In Florida, there happens to be a fuckton, and I go to every one I can manage. Why? To capture moments such as this:

In all their glory.

Griphonix · Apocrisiary Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 50

Yeah, there is good cosplay and there is bad cosplay in anime.

Bad cosplay:

I can't promise this isn't a photoshopping though...

Good cosplay:

I am yet to see a "good" fursuit.

MonicaKitty · Vociferator Joined: 24 Feb 2005 Posts: 450

I think the reason is there's a large presence of girls in anime, even normal, cute ones. That being said, this particular fandom isn't driven by horny fat guys with no outlet for their disgusting libidos. If anime never caught on with girls, if it was all just pimply fanboys, then it would prolly be nothing but porn too.

Paul · Vociferator Joined: 01 Feb 2004 Posts: 551

Computolio basically said it.

The main difference is that anime is a medium, and anime fandom (complete with obligatory fandom weirdness) is centered around that entire medium. Furry, OTOH, is not centered around the entirety of the many anthro-themed art/comics/films that exist. Apart from fixations on a few select major works like "The Lion King", furrydumb is centered wholly around the furries' own works and around furries themselves. There are countless non-furry anthro art/comics/films that are being enjoyed by countless average people, but furrydumb is only about a very specific sub-set of anthropomorphics - which opens up for derision, as it is identified only with those sub-sets, whereas anime fandom, any weirdness aside, is identified with a medium.

m_estrugo · Vociferator Joined: 13 Nov 2003 Posts: 353

Just give me some time to write my essay on "why furries fail when they compare to Japanese anime".

Stoneth · Vociferator Joined: 01 Dec 2004 Posts: 545

Oh, and sailorsuit guys are disturbing.

Michael Hirtes · Vociferator Joined: 04 Aug 2003 Posts: 793

Oh, and sailorsuit guys are disturbing.

In the case of male Sailorsuiters and the occasional "Man-Faye", I think they do it as a deliberate goof. They know they're not really pretty little girls. They just want to scare the shit out of gawkers (and do it far better than any H.R. Giger Alien outfit, definately).

Furries on the other hand, really do work over their sewing machines like Dr. Frankenstein in his laboratory, thinking that their hideous abominations in fabric are the most fantastic things, and will proudly show you how he rigged up the bulb valve to make his prosthetic wolf wiener grow into a 24" erection in under ten seconds.

LoKi · Coadjutor Joined: 09 Mar 2005 Posts: 99

That FF7 cosplay pic is fucking awesome... I wonder how much they spent on all that combined...

Ebonyleopard · Venter Joined: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 218

As a japanese animation(anime) geek I have sometimes wondered why anime has been accepted into the fold as just another of america's geeky fandoms while it seems furry will never gain even that level of modest acceptance. I’m not saying that furry doesn’t deserve what it is getting, I’m just interested in what it is about japanese animation that has saved it from the same fate.

It seems to me that anime has many of the same things that have dragged furry down, but somehow gotten away with it. They have fursuits, we have cosplay, they have yiff art, we have hentai, they have herms, we have dickgirls. Anything the furs have the Japanese have something just as bad. And it isn’t like we try to hide our perversion either. It’s out there and easy to find. It’s not that the “majority” of anime fans aren’t pervs either. I get the impression that 90% of anime fanboys(and girls) jerk it so some kind of hentai.

So, does anyone here have any theories on why anime has been “spared” to some degree?

Simple, when you have a country with a population big enough to change that of the US and the primary source of public entertainment is anime, (which seems to dominate any type of live action movie industry over there) why would it seem to be so out of norm from a US youth culture that's all about the 'wannabe' fade? That's why asking why there are more white guys listening to and acting like the hippest of hip hoppers, or why so many kids today want to embrace anything Japanese. It's the COOL fade of our time. And frankly, anime crap is everywhere, where as 'furry' stuff isn't because there's not money pumping industry behind furry.

I bet if a company out there stated mass producing furry comics, cartoons, and merchandise (and I'm not taking funny animal, I mean 'furry') it'd eventually catch on as the new fade.

Frankly, anime is destroying the art trade of cartooning because it's like kids don't know how to draw simple anatomy anymore because they've spent all their time tryint to make things look like Yugi Oh.

Ebonyleopard · Venter Joined: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 218

Well, I can equate Anime's rise here in the US to the fact that about... oh... 75% of Anime Fans are blissfully unaware of the insanity that is Japanese Culture and it's... darkside.

The other 25%... They either hate the hentai so much they avoid it and stick to the clean stuff, or like a power-hungry sith lord, embrace the darkness.

Yes, there are American Pervs... just not as many as the Furverts, and not as vocal.

Trust me, I've seen what happens when a Hentai perv shows himself... It's brutal.

We watch our own.

We're still working on the fat guys in sailor suits. We keep them around for comedy purposes... but they're starting to irritate even the easily amused of us. >_<

HA, have you been to any anime cons lately? I haven't been to many, but I'd beg to differ. Yaoi anyone?

Ebonyleopard · Venter Joined: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 218

Talon, I'll spell it out in very direct and simple terms.

The answer to your question can be condensed into two words: Mark Merlino.
.

Do we take a shot now?

Dude, let it go. Nobody remembers or cares about who Mark Merlino is anymore. I doubt Mark Merlino cares who he is anymore. The con he started doesn't even exist anymore. Can we stay in the 2000s (2005 to be more specific) rather than the 1990s or when ever.

Heck some people on this list may not have even been born when the stuff that happened to you took place. Let it GOoooO.

Chris Baird · Prattler Joined: 04 Aug 2003 Posts: 133

Well, I can equate Anime's rise here in the US to the fact that about... oh... 75% of Anime Fans are blissfully unaware of the insanity that is Japanese Culture and it's... darkside.

They're aware-- but being well-adjusted people in general, they don't care for it. ("omfg! It's a comic where the guy goes around raping schoolgirls! You gotta read it!" "No.")

Trust me, I've seen what happens when a Hentai perv shows himself... It's brutal.
We watch our own.

The situtation in Australia is interesting, in that the big Anime clubs, centred on Sydney and Melbourne Universities, have majority australian-born asian memberships. They're (almost primarily) used as safe social avenues for normal non-trendy student 20-somethings, without a hint of racism. A regular event is to go out and celebrate people's birthdays, and tableside conversations is only occassionally about topical animes. How more normal can you get..? :-)

Bloatbeast crossplayers are unheard of (except those 'outsiders' who show up at conventions unannounced), and there's a few "Madarame" Hentai-Daiohs (we had a birthday dinner for him a few days ago :-), but unless you want to include the 'outsiders' who are only active with the "Internet Anime fandom" and happen to live in Australia, I can't really point out anyone who gets the FREAK! label. There's Losers, but they're Normal Losers...

Chris Baird · Prattler Joined: 04 Aug 2003 Posts: 133

Do we take a shot now?

Can you edit out his disclaimer over the rant?

The "Great Gay Furry Reformation of 1996" was the point-of-no-return for Furry Fandom...

Dr. Mojo · Prattler Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 180

Talon, I'll spell it out in very direct and simple terms.

The answer to your question can be condensed into two words: Mark Merlino.
.

Do we take a shot now?

Dude, let it go. Nobody remembers or cares about who Mark Merlino is anymore. I doubt Mark Merlino cares who he is anymore. The con he started doesn't even exist anymore. Can we stay in the 2000s (2005 to be more specific) rather than the 1990s or when ever.

Heck some people on this list may not have even been born when the stuff that happened to you took place. Let it GOoooO.

I would agree, except that Mr. Merlino's influence on furrydumb is too big to ignore. Plus, history tends to repeat itself. It'd be best if people could see another Merlino coming.

Ebonyleopard · Venter Joined: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 218

I would agree, except that Mr. Merlino's influence on furrydumb is too big to ignore. Plus, history tends to repeat itself. It'd be best if people could see another Merlino coming.

Then, I truly guess I'm must not that involved in furryfandom then, which I'm guessing at this point is a good thing, because if one old gay guy can have that strong an influence over so many people for so long it's no wonder why topics like this continue to recycle themselves.

I've met the guy twice briefly and simply thought nothing more about him afterwards. Is control over the force must be getting weaker as he grows older.

Of course, for me, the fandom aspect of all of this nuttiness remains focused on the art and written media of it rather than individual people. I don't even have a favorite movie actor, so I guess when you don't get star struck or fanboyish over another human being it's not as easy to be influenced by them.

Why can't somebody simply just start a counter measure to what they say the problem is. Heck, of some how bring the guy up so much would set into action their 'ideal' version of 'furry' (Furry 2.0?) then maybe be can move on. (OF ocurse I still think the term 'furry' is dumb as hell to call a fandom, but then, so is trekkie).

Coyote Seven · Qualificator Joined: 30 Jun 2003 Posts: 17

Dude, let it go. Nobody remembers or cares about who Mark Merlino is anymore. I doubt Mark Merlino cares who he is anymore. The con he started doesn't even exist anymore. Can we stay in the 2000s (2005 to be more specific) rather than the 1990s or when ever.

Weeeell... actually...

Mark Merlino was most recently instrumental in getting CaliFur off the ground. He's not the big chief yet but, you never know what might happen with that guy.

This year will be Califur's second. I don't know if they'll have a third. The con will happen a little more than a month from now. I heard some local radio DJ personalities got wind of it and are going to show up or something. I predict a train wreck.

We'll see!

Dr. Dos · Venter Joined: 11 Oct 2004 Posts: 244

I bet if a company out there stated mass producing furry comics, cartoons, and merchandise (and I'm not taking funny animal, I mean 'furry') it'd eventually catch on as the new fade.

I'd cry.

like this but for a different reason.

Griphonix · Apocrisiary Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 50

The situtation in Australia is interesting, in that the big Anime clubs, centred on Sydney and Melbourne Universities, have majority australian-born asian memberships. They're (almost primarily) used as safe social avenues for normal non-trendy student 20-somethings, without a hint of racism. A regular event is to go out and celebrate people's birthdays, and tableside conversations is only occassionally about topical animes. How more normal can you get..? :-)

Oh god, I signed up to one of those a few days ago. They seem like okay, normal people, but there's still this club photo making me worry:

I'm not sure what I've gotten myself into...

Ebonyleopard · Venter Joined: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 218

The situtation in Australia is interesting, in that the big Anime clubs, centred on Sydney and Melbourne Universities, have majority australian-born asian memberships. They're (almost primarily) used as safe social avenues for normal non-trendy student 20-somethings, without a hint of racism. A regular event is to go out and celebrate people's birthdays, and tableside conversations is only occassionally about topical animes. How more normal can you get..? :-)

Oh god, I signed up to one of those a few days ago. They seem like okay, normal people, but there's still this club photo making me worry:

I'm not sure what I've gotten myself into...

Well for anime nerds they look pretty....normal.

Gotta give anime fandom one definite thing over furry, they've definitely got a lot more hot chicks. Furry, it's harder to find females at the conventions (because I know, there are a lot of 'furry' females out there), but not always easy finding good looking ones. Anime cons are like walking into a candy store, with so much variety in many different flavors, colors, and sizes.

Of course while furry seems to have it's high ratio of gay gays, anime seems to have an unusal amount of gay gals. (Odd trade off).

AngryPuritan · Vociferator Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 399

I think the reason is there's a large presence of girls in anime, even normal, cute ones. That being said, this particular fandom isn't driven by horny fat guys with no outlet for their disgusting libidos. If anime never caught on with girls, if it was all just pimply fanboys, then it would prolly be nothing but porn too.

Girls make porn too!

Hell, some of the best furry pornographers are female, and Star Trek slash ficton was a female invention.

Michael Hirtes · Vociferator Joined: 04 Aug 2003 Posts: 793

Nobody remembers or cares about who Mark Merlino is anymore. I doubt Mark Merlino cares who he is anymore. The con he started doesn't even exist anymore.

Um, ever heard of Califur?

If you actually think that Merlino isn't the real guy running this con via the use of a front man and he isn't using it a vehicle to pick up where he left off with ConFurence, then you really are a 14 karat tool.

Coyote Seven · Qualificator Joined: 30 Jun 2003 Posts: 17

Nobody remembers or cares about who Mark Merlino is anymore. I doubt Mark Merlino cares who he is anymore. The con he started doesn't even exist anymore.

Um, ever heard of Califur?

If you actually think that Merlino isn't the real guy running this con via the use of a front man and he isn't using it a vehicle to pick up where he left off with ConFurence, then you really are a 14 karat tool.

From what I heard, the Califur crew tried to buy the name "ConFurence" from Exline, but he's so far refused and wants to hold onto it.

Aaaaah, teh drama!

Talon · Qualificator Joined: 09 Apr 2005 Posts: 5

First I’d like to thank Dogthing for sticking it equally to both the anime fangirls and fanboys. When criticizing the anime fandom most people tend to favor one over the other.

MonicaKitty wrote

I think the reason is there's a large presence of girls in anime, even normal, cute ones. That being said, this particular fandom isn't driven by horny fat guys with no outlet for their disgusting libidos. If anime never caught on with girls, if it was all just pimply fanboys, then it would prolly be nothing but porn too.

I don’t know, somehow I don’t think the presence of fangirls made a difference. It’s been my experience that there are just as many crazy fangirls as fanboys when it comes to anime. It’s not just the guys who have twisted libidos. Although having a fandom composed almost entirely of males can’t be good, I really don’t believe fangirls helped anime in any significant way. They really are no better than male otaku’s.

Gargoyle · Vociferator Joined: 04 Sep 2004 Posts: 387

I don’t know, somehow I don’t think the presence of fangirls made a difference. It’s been my experience that there are just as many crazy fangirls as fanboys when it comes to anime. It’s not just the guys who have twisted libidos. Although having a fandom composed almost entirely of males can’t be good, I really don’t believe fangirls helped anime in any significant way. They really are no better than male otaku’s.

They're more often not fat and ugly.

Talon · Qualificator Joined: 09 Apr 2005 Posts: 5

They're more often not fat and ugly.

I assume you are saying that the difference between anime fangirls and fanboys is that fangirls on average are more attractive than fanboys.

Sense the subject of this thread is what qualities of the anime fandom helped it become more accepted than the furry fandom, I'm also assuming that you are trying to make an argument that the average attractiveness of the fans makes a difference in the acceptance of a fandom by the rest of society.

By this logic I'm guessing you believe that if a large enough portion of the furry fandom lost weight and got makeovers they would become more accepted no matter how nuts they are.

I disagree.

Michael Hirtes · Vociferator Joined: 04 Aug 2003 Posts: 793

From what I heard, the Califur crew tried to buy the name "ConFurence" from Exline, but he's so far refused and wants to hold onto it.

Aaaaah, teh drama!

According to what I heard, Exline was begging Merlino to take back the CF name & rights (for free even), but Mark knew better than to take back a proverbial mattress that he soiled years ago.

mouse · Needs to get out more Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 1030

First I’d like to thank Dogthing for sticking it equally to both the anime fangirls and fanboys. When criticizing the anime fandom most people tend to favor one over the other.

What it is , is this:

I've been thru both fandoms (to a degree) simply becuase I've always favored cartoons with talking animals for whatever reason and way back, back in high school I was big into Anime for a while. Mainly for its darker or rather, more adult, content it tended to offer. I never had any real association with a larger Anime fandom, but I noticed early on that people who were real into it (like people are real into anything music, movies, politics, you name it, tend to be - myself included) were pricks. Everybody has something to be loud about.

The problem with fandoms or any interest oriented group (when considering more plain mainstream stuff) is that people go way to fucking far with it. Always. I liked Anime because anime had something to offer than American cartoons generally didn't. It never had anything to do with the fact it came from Japan, or that it had a specific style (at best it was interesting novelty that wore off, and wasn't as important to the storylines). It had to do with the fact I seen some Anime I like. I like stuff with cartoons animals, but if its shit - its shit. Theres nothing wrong with generalities, saying that you tend to like cartoons from a particular country (or a character or plot type) because of certain aspects.. but people too often focus on way too fine a point. Taking it to an insane, obsessive level is retarded.

I like some anime in the way I like some (all vague definitions aside, very specifically) furry stuff. But neither enough that I would really put myself in any of those particular scenes. Theres too much other shit involved in both. Everyone seems to have this all or nothing attitude.. well, guess what? Most normal people don't operate like that. fuck it, take what you want from a group and piss on the rest. To do anything else is stupid, IMHO

Gargoyle · Vociferator Joined: 04 Sep 2004 Posts: 387

They're more often not fat and ugly.

I assume you are saying that the difference between anime fangirls and fanboys is that fangirls on average are more attractive than fanboys.

Sense the subject of this thread is what qualities of the anime fandom helped it become more accepted than the furry fandom, I'm also assuming that you are trying to make an argument that the average attractiveness of the fans makes a difference in the acceptance of a fandom by the rest of society.

By this logic I'm guessing you believe that if a large enough portion of the furry fandom lost weight and got makeovers they would become more accepted no matter how nuts they are.

I disagree.

If they would be less lonely and sexually frustrated and bitter at the world? I think it's something like: fat + ugly = jailhouse gay -> furry fandom extravaganza.

Goofy · Rasophore Joined: 18 Mar 2005 Posts: 55

The problem with fandoms or any interest oriented group (when considering more plain mainstream stuff) is that people go way to fucking far with it. Always. I liked Anime because anime had something to offer than American cartoons generally didn't. It never had anything to do with the fact it came from Japan, or that it had a specific style (at best it was interesting novelty that wore off, and wasn't as important to the storylines). It had to do with the fact I seen some Anime I like. I like stuff with cartoons animals, but if its shit - its shit. Theres nothing wrong with generalities, saying that you tend to like cartoons from a particular country (or a character or plot type) because of certain aspects.. but people too often focus on way too fine a point. Taking it to an insane, obsessive level is retarded.

Summed up nicely.

I've had experience with both fandoms. There are people in both who take it waaay too far. But I think people in furry more often take it way too far than anime fans do.

Coyote Seven · Qualificator Joined: 30 Jun 2003 Posts: 17

From what I heard, the Califur crew tried to buy the name "ConFurence" from Exline, but he's so far refused and wants to hold onto it.

Aaaaah, teh drama!

According to what I heard, Exline was begging Merlino to take back the CF name & rights (for free even), but Mark knew better than to take back a proverbial mattress that he soiled years ago.

Hmm. I wonder which one is true then? Meh.

My source is two people I remain in touch with from time to time, both of them total Furries. I know both of them go to CaliFur's staff meetings regularly and at least one of them is actually on their staff.

I would believe though that Merlino would spin such a story around to put him in the proper light among his peers over at the CaliFur staff. I wish I knew for sure which story was the correct one though.

Skunkfuckers Inc. · Needs to get out more Joined: 20 Jan 2004 Posts: 980

You know, I really despise this topic so damn much it's sickening...

Talon · Qualificator Joined: 09 Apr 2005 Posts: 5

The problem with fandoms or any interest oriented group (when considering more plain mainstream stuff) is that people go way to fucking far with it. Always. I liked Anime because anime had something to offer than American cartoons generally didn't. It never had anything to do with the fact it came from Japan, or that it had a specific style (at best it was interesting novelty that wore off, and wasn't as important to the storylines). It had to do with the fact I seen some Anime I like. I like stuff with cartoons animals, but if its shit - its shit. Theres nothing wrong with generalities, saying that you tend to like cartoons from a particular country (or a character or plot type) because of certain aspects.. but people too often focus on way too fine a point. Taking it to an insane, obsessive level is retarded.

Summed up nicely.

I've had experience with both fandoms. There are people in both who take it waaay too far. But I think people in furry more often take it way too far than anime fans do.

Yes, that's all very true but it doesn't answer the question of why anime has become somewhat mainstream while furry is still...well...not.

Anyway, thanks for the insight everyone.

P.S. What's pissing you off so bad Skunkfuckers?

m_estrugo · Vociferator Joined: 13 Nov 2003 Posts: 353

Yes, that's all very true but it doesn't answer the question of why anime has become somewhat mainstream while furry is still...well...not.

Anyway, thanks for the insight everyone.

Let's start with a simple premise: the American anime fandom is just a pale, tiny reflection of manga culture in Japan, its country of origin, where mangas aren't an afittion or a hobby, but part of their culture since the 50s. For the average Japanese person, mangas are just a part of their day-to-day living, like TV or Internet in the United States.

In Japan, mangas are an important part of entertainment industry: about 40% of the paper consumed by the country is transformed in comic books. Publishing houses are as powerful and preeminent in Japan as TV broadcasters are in the USA. These big companies follow the Japanese method of creating gigantic multi-media consortiums, so when a manga character becomes popoular enough, they consider the creation of a popular TV series, a movie, and/or videogames for the most sophisticated videoconsoles of the moment, together with a gruesomely big paraphernalia of merchandising products. Nintendo took a step ahead and comercialized in 1995 the "pokémon" phenomena, releasing a comic, a TV series and a videogame at the same time, each of them highly successful on their respective fields, and it seems this model will be repeated in the future.

The growth of manga industry and the application of some marketing rules created a careful system where target audiences get what they want depending on their age and gender. Thus, we have different mangas for young kids, for male OR female early teens, for young men OR women or for adult men OR women. Note the similarity with TV target publics in America.

The US public was unaware about Japanese manga culture for many years, although we did had access to some of their creations: Speed Racer, Astro Boy, Kimba, etc. While these series did have a strong following in the United States, they didn't generate an articulated "fandom" until the 80s.

While in these times many Western countries continued to struggle with tough economic times, the Japanese economy seemed invincible; their expansion plans led them to make themselves stronger in other markets, like US. One of these markets was the videogame industry: the arrival of Nintendo and Sega and their NES and Game Gear consoles marked the begining of the Japanese domination on the videogame world.

Together with the economics, Japan also exported some of their culture, including manga on its diferent manifestations. And then, manga culture arrived to the US. Many people felt fascinated by this culture, and many people within the US are loyal followers of manga expressions on their different formats. However, it was widely misunderstood. Some people assumed that manga was all a simgle uniform culture, and thus we can see many grown up male followers of a series originally targetted for early teen girls like
Sailor Moon, who sometimes disguise themselves like their heroines. (Or they just do it for comedy purposes.) Besides, there is still a large amount of people within the US who think that comics and cartoons are just for kids, therefore, manga received a lot of backslash as those people thought that series created for mature viewers were targetted to children. (helped by many manga publishers who commit that same mistake!) However, that backslash didn't affect manga culture in Japan, that continued with their same scheme for years with not worries about whatever happened in the US.

So let's see...

Furydom is not a culture, but a "hobby" or a "lifestyle". It's solely based on individuals and a handful of microcompanies that, as I have seen on these forums, love to struggle with each other and have little or no cohesion ability to create a product.

Furrydom doesn't have a history on a foreign country with heavy influence on the contemporary world.

Furrydom is a marginal creative force: even its most famous artists in the fandom have little or no weight outside it, and if they have it, they sure hide their furriness as it could "harm their reputation". There have been early attempts to do mainstream animated productions with strong furry contents that was backed up when investors realized what was "furrydom".

Furrydom has got no strong corporations caring about their image behind. Although many people consider some of Disney's movies as "furry", it's unlikely to see this company sponsoring or participating on any actual "furry" convention. In fact, Disney -forbids- the implicit or explicit participation of their professionals in any fandom.

Furrydom is not "everything related with anthropomorphic characters", despite what some people say at the respect. There's a large number of anthropomorphic artists who decided not to involve themselves in fandom after they knew about it. And some others who abandoned it after their reputation was severely affected.

Furrydom has no presence outside the fandom. Nor weight in mass media systems that could help to improve furrydom's image.

Heck, furrydom doesn't even have a definition.

Under these premises, how come could you compare anime fandom and furrydom? :b

Computolio · Vociferator Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 631

P.S. What's pissing you off so bad Skunkfuckers?

I am guessing he hates this thread for the same reasons I do!!! Not telling what the reasons are, though. YOU'LL JUST HAVE TO FIGURE IT OUT FOR YOURSELVES (LIKE THE ENDING TO EVANGELION HURR DURR)