To Manawolf, my Love...
This is an open invitation to talk. To post. If you want the post private, tell me and I'll do it. But
we need to talk and work these things out. I guess to start things off, I'll talk about what happend
tonight.

As you know, I got upset tonight at dinner. We were out at Olive Garden, with Goku-mom (sp?)
and another fellow DragonBallX role-player, who were visiting after attending Yaoi-Con. I thought
it would be a wonderful experience, and a neutral place for everyone to get to know each other. It
all started so well.

And then it happened.

As usual, the conversation was DragonBallX. I expected this, since you were all from the same
online group. What I didn't expect was the humiliation I would experience in front of your guests
and friends. I was lucky to be at the periphery of the conversation - I'm not into DragonBallX, and
never will be. It's not my thing. But that's what the conversation was, so I tried to join in. As
everyone was bring up references to some very evil fanfics, I joined in and helped to twist the
proverbial knife. Just like everyone else seemed to be doing. That's when you humiliated me in
front of strangers by saying "Oh, just ignore what he's saying. That's all I do anymore."

Ow.

That hurt.

Next time, why don't you just slap me in the face? It would be less humiliating, and I could deal
with the physical pain. The emotional pain hurts a lot longer.

Wolfwings didn't help by piping in "Who are you talking to?", obviously going along with the joke. I
can't blame him; normally, that wouldn't have fazed me. But for him to go along and humiliate me
as well was too much.

I completely lost my appetite for dinner. I will admit that my memory of the rest of this
conversation is very fuzzy. I felt like my best friend in the world, my soul mate had just stabbed
me in the back and laughed as I plead for mercy. Over all the past years of hurt we have caused
each other, this was the worst betrayal I have EVER had. By anyone, EVER.

You humiliated me even more when you gave me an attitude about being hurt. As if I didn't have
the right to be hurt. You said, "What? You were asking for it. What did you expect?" I believe I
mumbled something about that being very hurtful, and you replied again, in the same hurtful
voice: "Well, then what DO you want?" I could't answer. My voice was so trapped in my throat, I
couldn't even think about words. 32 years of self-esteem were just flushed down the toilet, and I
was terrified. Of you. I heard and saw my stepfather in your words and eyes, and I had to leave. I
never thought I would be terrified of him again, but you proved me wrong.

I threw some money on the table, mumbled something and left. I couldn't be there anymore.
Looking back, I've heard of the same kind of thing happening with other people. But it's usually a
domineering man humiliating his wife/girlfriend. It's called emotional abuse.

When did we cross over this far?

How could someone who just this weekend told me she still loved me, go ahead nad abuse me like
that? How can someone who is so kind to nearly every one else in the world, treat her mate that
way? I still can't believe this night happened.

I was honest when I said I can't deal with DragonBallX. Not anymore, anyway. It's none of my
business if you want to role-play yaoi with others. My problem with it is you do it ALL THE TIME.
If you're not writing it or reading it, you're talking to Otana about it. Or you're drawing it. You're
even role-playing at work, when you find the time. I tried deperately to deal with it, so I could be
closer to you. But there's only so much slash fiction I can take before I can leave. It's even worse
when you and Otana toss some random writing at me, and laugh when I eventually get squicked by
it.

Y'know how it feels when someone scritches in the same place? It feels good at first, but it
becomes bothersome after a while, and hurts soon after? That's what DragonBallX does to me
now. I cannot deal with it anymore. I've learned more about the DragonBall anime that I really
care to know. But I learned about it so I could talk to you, talk about what you love so much. I am
seriously burning out on even seeing DragonBall on DVD. There's only so often I can watch
something (or listen to something, for that matter), before I remember enough about it so it's no
longer fun to watch it anymore. The only reason I watch DragonBall with you & Otana anymore is
to hear the differences between the english dub and the original japanese. And spend time with
you, of course. I used to enjoy it, but your near-constant DragonBall influx is burning me out
badly.

I could add a lot more, but I want this to be a conversation instead of mutual rants. I will end this
post with an analogy, one that I mentioned to Wolfwings on the way home tonight:

Your and Otana's love of each other and of DragonBallX is like a giant genki-dama (spirit bomb for
you english dub DragonBall viewers). It keeps growing and growing, bigger and bigger, with the
two of you at its center. I was next to you when the genki-dama was being created, and thought I
was helping you create it. Now, it keeps pushing me away the bigger it gets. I want to be by your
side, DESPERATELY want to regain what it is I have lost. But all I can see is my impending death
when the genki-dama eventually explodes, taking our former life with it.


(Post a new comment)


manawolf
2003-10-21 19:40 (link)

Hm. Sometimes I have thought that we should break up because all we are doing is hurting each
other. I do see your depression, and I have noticed how it has gotten worse. If I was removed
from the picture, would you recover? That's what I wonder. I really wonder if it's best for both of
us.

I wrote a lot about last night, but I left it at work. Actually, I don't roleplay at all at work. The only
writing I do these days is journal entries, which I bring home via floppy.

I... AM very sorry you were so severely affected by my words. They were, by the way, "You're
giving us a very good reason to ignore you," NOT "Oh, just ignore what he's saying. That's all I do
anymore," though I wouldn't be suprised if that's how you remember them.

I didn't mean to humiliate you. But the knife-twisting, as you call it, went too far. It seems that
you feel so antagonistically towards my interests, yet want to be a part of them, that you...
"participate" by being mean-spirited. How would you take it if I told you about pairing Lola with
the MonStars boss? Squick, shudder in revulsion and shove the idea aside as quiclky as possible?
What if I kept harping on it despite your wish to move on to a different topic?

I probably should have simply told you it was really starting to annoy me, but I was starting to get
pissed off, and my patience for your jibes towards the genre has worn thin. I thought you most
likely would have taken it wrong no matter how I said it, so I didn't pull any punches. I was kind of
trying to let you know that, if you were ignored, it would be that sort of thing that would
encourage others to do so... that's what was going through my mind at the time, anyway.

Patience is a lot of my reaction was about. I'm tired of patiently taking your temper in stride and
letting it wash over me. I'm tired of doing my best to placate you when you sulk and having no
effect at all. I'm tired of everything I do being not quite right or not enough or the wrong timing.

So I stood up to you. Isn't that what you've said you want? I refused to let you intimidate me or be
affected by your martyr complex, and I was brutally honest with you. You could have expressed
that being ignored was a sore point right now and accepted Wolf's apology, even if it didn't make
you feel any better, and tried to stick it out and be sociable. But you threw a fit and took off. You
felt humiliated? Otana and I were horribly embarrassed.

I have a bit more sympathy for your reaction now that you say how you were affected. But at the
time you resembled nothing more than an overdramatizing child, throwing a big act to manipulate
someone into doing what you wanted. That is how it looked, plain and simple.

(Reply to this) (Thread)




manawolf
2003-10-21 19:40 (link)


If it makes any sense, I'm hurt by how I hurt you. This is how my endless self-sacrifice developed,
because doing what you describe is so abhorrent to me. And now I've done it. At one time I swore
I would rather be hurt a thousand times over than ever betray another. I guess I've been hurt that
much.

I really can't figure out what you want from me. You say all you need is to have someone stand up
to you when you're angry, to knock some sense into your head. I've finally been worn down far
enough so that I do that and this is what we end up with. You say you need not to be coddled &
"aww-baby"'d over, but when I refuse to do so you get even more upset.

I don't know how to tell what the hell you want, and I don't know if I can give it to you. (This is
now in refrence to the morning incident at my mother's.) If I express sympathy, you slap it away.
If I try to let you run off your frusturation in peace, you get depressed because I'm ignoring you.
That's the limit of my natural reactions. I think that's the limit of most people's normal reactions
to someone bitching about something. I tried to act marginally sympathetic but I wasn't in the
mood to get told off because I was giving you too much. I did give you a little "aww" for the burn,
but it really seemed you were determined to have a miserable time and make everyone around you
as unhappy as possible. And the most reasonable reaction to that seemed to be to refuse to let
you pull us in.

I don't think I have what it takes to treat you gently anymore when I'm pissed off. As you know I
have practically endless reserves of patience, and they're bottomed out. It would probably take me
a little while to treat you as I want to treat the ones I love - with demonstrative affection that has
proven to be more than you can handle. Normally that is so easy for me to do that it sheds onto
my interactions with casual acquaintances. But when I am angry with you, as I have been more
often than not these days, it simply is not possible for me anymore.

There is more, but I think that's plenty for now.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)




chythar
2003-10-21 22:07 (link)

You say you need not to be coddled & "aww-baby"'d over, but when I refuse to do so you get even
more upset.

It would probably take me a little while to treat you as I want to treat the ones I love - with
demonstrative affection that has proven to be more than you can handle.

There's a lot of gray area between coddling and getting pissed off at me. This is definitely a part I
don't understand. You tell me that you can't just hold back just a little bit, that it's all or nothing.
You either have to give me everything all at once, or you can't give me anything at all. How did
you put it? It was easier emotionally to not give anything at all, than to undergo the stress of
holding back? It's been too long, I'd like to hear your words on this again.

...that has proven to be more than you can handle.

As I remember, I have made an attempt to restrain my reaction to your "coddling", as I once put it.
I have made some attempts to undo the mental programming that makes me instinctively recoil
from the "awww" part. I don't know if you understand how often I was ridiculed with that exact
phrase when I showed any weakness. "Awww, poor baby!" I see the reaction now, and I believe I
have made some progress against it.

You have told me that you are hurt by me recoiling from your affection. Perfectly understandable,
and as always I am sorry that I have hurt you. However, I cannot promise that I will be perfect. I
cannot promise that I will always respond exactly as you want me to. I will make mistakes. If you
withdraw everything every time I make a mistake, you are rewarding my attempts with sorrow.
You teach me that no matter how hard I try, I will always fail.

*THWAP!*

*OW!*

I hate it when I realize i'm being hypocritical. My criticism of you is a long-standing issue that isn't
really based on the things I'm nitpicking on. It's based on promises that keep getting broken, on a
lack of trust between us. I don't want to ignore this issue, or be cryptic, but it's a BIG one and
we've got many more in between to deal with. I'll leave it at this, for now:

I promise to try and not criticize you on things you do "wrong".

How can I differentiate between criticizing, and reminding you of something you may have
forgotten? I've been accused of criticizing you when I was just asking you a question.

(Reply to this) (Parent)




chythar
2003-10-21 21:37 (link)

I do see your depression, and I have noticed how it has gotten worse. If I was removed from the
picture, would you recover?

I don't believe so. As I mentioned to Otana in my post to her, I know what's causing the
depression. It's all I can think about while I'm depressed. It's the thought of losing you that makes
me so depressed. Of the past 7 1/2 years being in vain. Of both of us hurting each other every
day. Would I recover if you left? Sure. But that's like cutting your arm off when your hand hurts.
I'll eventually recover, but I will bear the scars for life.

What do I think will help? To repair our relationship.

I have caught myself trying for negative attention. I don't know why. The only thing I can think of
is that it's a desperate bid for attention, YOUR attention. We barely do more than say "Hi"
anymore, and I so DESPERATELY crave the intimacy we once had.

What if I kept harping on it despite your wish to move on to a different topic?

Point. You know I like to tease. However, I take responsibility for that. I was honestly unaware
that my teasing was that painful. The discussion at that time was on that same topic, about
revolting "pairings". I just ran with it. As to what to do about it, my first reaction is to just say,
"Fine. I just won't talk when DragonBallX is the topic of conversation." But that would definitely be
childish. So, I will only pull back a notch or two and do my best to not make such mean
comments. I will ask you a favor, though. I cannot promise I will be perfect 100% of the time. I
will most likely slip up at some point and run off on a painful tangent. My request is this: Tell me
what I'm doing. Make sure I'm aware that subject is out of bounds. Basically, bap me on the nose
a few times until I remember. Don't clock me in the face once yuo've gotten sick of it.

Patience is a lot of my reaction was about. I'm tired of patiently taking your temper in stride and
letting it wash over me. I'm tired of doing my best to placate you when you sulk and having no
effect at all. I'm tired of everything I do being not quite right or not enough or the wrong timing.

But you DO have an effect when you stand up to me. You ARE getting through when you're trying
to placate me when I'm in a bad mood. The issue is, you stop before you see any effect. Yes, I
know that's a "not good enough" phrase. Let me explain before you get upset.

I can't count the number of times I've seen you depressed. When I see you that way, and I'm not
depressed myself, I do everything I can to help. How many times have I managed to cheer you up
with my stupid jokes and puns? Just acting like a clown until I see you smile?

Each and every time, my first joke has no effect at all. At least, on the outside. The second and
usually the third don't appear to do anything, either. But if I persevere, I am rewarded with a
smile. A "Thank you". Even just receiving a smile is enough to know I've cheered you up some. I
know I can't fix everything, but seeing you smile tells me you're on your way to getting better.
And I feel complete.

I need the same thing. I remember you trying to help out, but the real me is trapped behind the
anger. Just making the attempt helps to weaken its hold over me. I need more of the same, to
break it and let me return to normal.

As you well know, I have made great strides in reducing my temper in these past years. Especially
in recent weeks, where I've had some success in deflating my temper on my own. But I need your
help to beat it forever. Please remember this:

I have very little control over my emotional reactions in those moods.

I cannot stop myself from rejecting you the first time you try.

(Reply to this) (Parent)




chythar
2003-10-21 21:38 (link)

Damn 4300 character limit.....

You HAVE had success in thwarting my temper! I remember it very vividly. You were very calm
when you approached me, and you offered me a shoulder rub. I remember blowing you off in
some way; I don't remember what it was I said. I do remember it wasn't a very nice thing to say,
and it was intended to push you away. But you were persistent. I put up little resistance when you
led me over to the futon. And I remember melting as you rubbed my shoulders. Granted, you
need a sledgehammer to get through the muscle there, but you were trying. And it worked. I
remember thanking you for helping me, and I remember you seemed exceptionally pleased that it
worked.

You found a method that was non-confrontational.

You found a method that WORKED.

I need your help to start me on the road to recovery.

I can't do it on my own. I repeat: I need your help.


You could have expressed that being ignored was a sore point right now and accepted Wolf's
apology, even if it didn't make you feel any better, and tried to stick it out and be sociable.

But I DID. I told Wolf that I didn't like being ignored. I told you as well. I was trying to stick it out,
but it wasn't working. I couldn't even hear the conversation anymore, I was retreating so fast.
Basically, you pushed a button I didn't even know was there. If it wasn't for that button, I don't
believe I would have left. Remember me talking about not wanting to be left out? My one fear of
you and Otana starting a relationship? You confirmed that one fear for me. That you are leaving
me behind for Otana. Whether it's true or not, at that moment I believed it was all true, and I had
lost you forever.

So I stood up to you. Isn't that what you've said you want?

Sure, when I'm all pissed off. Getting in my face is one of the easiest ways to defuse that anger.
The other is to deal with me, but not to respond to the anger. Talk to me, do something physically
benign and calm. It doesn't work when I'm joking around and socializing. Looking back on it, I
was reacting less to your tone of voice and attitude than to the words you said. If you had told me
off and berated me for being rude to our guests, I am sure I would not have acted that way.

You felt humiliated? Otana and I were horribly embarrassed.

We both reacted badly. As usual these past few years, we both reacted the completely wrong way.
And ended up hurting each other once again.

Sadly, Chythar isn't a bad guy. Manawolf on the other hand seems to have gone further off the deep end.

Gotta love it.

I'm also really starting to feel the lack of physical affection. I asked Chy last night if he wanted to snuggle and he said no. Should I even ask? I don't know. But we always did have a good phermonal interaction, and I miss it. I don't want much, just to spoon a little before going to sleep. I dragged Swift Heart Rabbit down from the headboard to snuggle me. HE didn't complain.

Also: I'm pretty short on the Cythar sympathy. After all there's a cruel but succinct metaphor for people like Wheeler: DAMAGED GOODS. Of course, in the furry community it's a choice between damaged goods or no goods but that's kind of a moot point. The fact that he put up with SEVEN FUCKING YEARS of this cunt's egotistm and utter utter depravity does nothing but to mark him as the Single Greatest Douche In Existance.

There is something worrying about how many Furries (and other people of course) embrace live journal as a kind of surrogate social network and life, and how many of them get all upset because they ARE NOT GETTING ENOUGH ATTENTION Or otherwise CREATING DRAMA (that is, comments in their journal and being put on people’s friends list et al)