Crush...Yiff...Destroy!

Barry Scott · Prattler Joined: 09 May 2005 Posts: 152

This has probably been discussed before but using a search turned up a blank so here goes.

Why do a lot of furry "artists" never get any better no matter how long they draw? Even if you never took an art lesson in your life, I was told that practising would still make you a better artist. However, a lot of furries seem immune to getting any better, tho that it ever stops them cranking out awful wank material. I've come up with some theories for this. I don't have to tell you that you're free to pick them apart.

Lack of critic: As we all know furries can't handle criticism very well, no matter how constructive. So they never take advice or look at their work and think "they're right, that DOES suck" and go and improve it. The few furries that don't flip the fuck out when someone says something bad about their work tend to improve. As a loose rule, the better the artist, the less of a douchebag they are.

Circle-jerk mentality: Furries tend to be very excepting and tolerant of the freaks and arseholes within the fandom and anyone being "nasty" (like disagree with someone's fucked up fetish) in their forums or chat rooms is ostracised. This leaves a huge group of faggot yes-men that never say anything bad about someone's work, no matter how shit it is. This doesn’t only stagnate the artist though lack of criticism, it strokes their egos, so they are even less likely to take advice.

Copycats: You know if you make a copy of a VCR tape it's worse then the original, and making copies of the copies are even worse? Well that's what a lot of furry artists seem to do. One "artist" sees a style he likes whacking off to and slavishly, if not perfectly copies it. The second artist likes bashing the bishop to the first artists style and copies that and so on.

Fetishes: A lot of furries have a secondary fetish that shows up in the art. Say the artist has a foot fetish. It'll concentrate everything on the feet and rush everything else.

Drawing one handed: Furries that draw nothing but porn, never seem to get any better. Those that draw other things seems to get better. I let you speculate why that is :p

My favourite case in point has to be Tony Handlir (NSFW). It boggles the mind that he can draw so much for so long and STILL not improve one iota!

AngryPuritan · Needs to get out more Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 1361

Why do a lot of furry "artists" never get any better no matter how long they draw?

Any artist has to expand to improve. They have to try new things, make mistakes and whatnot. Furries show their thrill for expanding by NEVER DRAWING ANYTHING BUT GODDAMN FURRIES. So is it no surprise that when they find the style they like, and the one that makes them distinguishable from other furries, that they stick with it and improve no more? Especially when you figure they get money for it anyway.

Some well known furry artists eventually expand (I think Mark Parsons is finally attempting something new), but it's too little too late in most cases. It's not the number of years they've drawn, it's the number of times they tried new things.

Barry Scott · Prattler Joined: 09 May 2005 Posts: 152

Why do a lot of furry "artists" never get any better no matter how long they draw?

Any artist has to expand to improve. They have to try new things, make mistakes and whatnot. Furries show their thrill for expanding by NEVER DRAWING ANYTHING BUT GODDAMN FURRIES. So is it no surprise that when they find the style they like, and the one that makes them distinguishable from other furries, that they stick with it and improve no more? Especially when you figure they get money for it anyway.

Some well known furry artists eventually expand (I think Mark Parsons is finally attempting something new), but it's too little too late in most cases. It's not the number of years they've drawn, it's the number of times they tried new things.

I agree with you for the most part, but even when they draw nothing but furries they don't even get any better at that! You'd think they'd improve their anatomy at least! BUT THEY DON'T!

AngryPuritan · Needs to get out more Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 1361

Well, how can they improve their anatomy skills if they never attempt humans, which most of the furries are built like, or real animals to improve the faces?

I'm sure Disney and Warner Brothers animators drew stuff apart from Mickey or Bugs.

Barry Scott · Prattler Joined: 09 May 2005 Posts: 152

True. I'm still quite new to this and I still try to apply logic to furries. If I was going to learn how to draw a human with a dogs head, I would learn to draw a human body. Of course HOOMINS ARE EVIL!!!!111 so I'm sure a lot of them wouldn't even consider this.

AlbinoHagfish · Prattler Joined: 31 Jul 2005 Posts: 199

Wow, he really hasn't improved at all. My art was that shitty in 2000, but now I'm better than that. Barely though. *Grins* As for copying, I admit I've considered studying Micah Fennec for technique enhancement, but I don't desire to steal her style.

Dr. Dos · Vociferator Joined: 11 Oct 2004 Posts: 718

Any artist has to expand to improve. They have to try new things, make mistakes and whatnot. Furries show their thrill for expanding by NEVER DRAWING ANYTHING BUT GODDAMN FURRIES. So is it no surprise that when they find the style they like, and the one that makes them distinguishable from other furries, that they stick with it and improve no more? Especially when you figure they get money for it anyway.

Bonus points if the difference between species is fur color only.

GoManVanGogh · Vociferator Joined: 18 Nov 2003 Posts: 659

Roz Gibson got better over time.
But then again, she's an artist first and a phurrhae second.
And even then, she's not so much a phurrhae as she is "Queen of the Damned".

5thehardway · Prattler Joined: 23 Nov 2004 Posts: 161

Well, how can they improve their anatomy skills if they never attempt humans, which most of the furries are built like, or real animals to improve the faces?

I'm sure Disney and Warner Brothers animators drew stuff apart from Mickey or Bugs.

Fucking seconded. Some furry artists don't seem to use references or models or even look out of their goddamn window once in a while.

Additionally, the notion of studying things such as value, color theory, or anatomy never seems to occur to them. They don't understand basic tenets of art-- but why should they when they're just drawing jerk-off material?

Paul · Needs to get out more Joined: 01 Feb 2004 Posts: 1092

I think Barry Scott and AngryPuritan got most of the reasons for the non-development of many furry artists down to a tee.

Any good artist will be versatile. Many who choose to draw in highly cartoony styles can usually draw "for real" as well, because even if you make very simplified art, you have to understand what it is you simplify. The single best way of improving drawing skill is to draw from life, which is where so many furry artists fail - they start out by copying some other furry artist, and never grasp the fundamentals of anatomy, etc.

If I was going to learn how to draw a human with a dogs head, I would learn to draw a human body. Of course HOOMINS ARE EVIL!!!!111 so I'm sure a lot of them wouldn't even consider this.

I don't think it's that fucked up. IMO it's just because many furry "artists" aren't really into it for the art, so they don't bother improving by, say, taking drawing classes. A real artist will draw for the sake of drawing, for the sake of improving his/her skill. The typical furry artist will draw in order to A) produce own fetish wank material, or B) get praised by sycophant furries, or C) both. So of course they only draw yiffy foxtaurs or whatever. It's not about developing as an artist, it's about the benefits it can give. It's the difference between art as an end in itself and art as a means to an end. There's no reason to improve your art, no matter how hideous it is, if it gives you the hard-on or the accolades you seek, and you don't want anything else from it.

My favourite case in point has to be Tony Handlir (NSFW). It boggles the mind that he can draw so much for so long and STILL not improve one iota!

Handlir's stuff is crummy all right, but he's got nothing on Urban Hermit, who's got almost three fucking thousand pics in his archive, and the shit he drew back in 1982 looks exactly like the shit he drew yesterday.

Barry Scott · Prattler Joined: 09 May 2005 Posts: 152

Handlir's stuff is crummy all right, but he's got nothing on Urban Hermit, who's got almost three fucking thousand pics in his archive, and the shit he drew back in 1982 looks exactly like the shit he drew yesterday.

Just like to say "HOLY SHIT!" Over 20 years and he STILL draws like that? Jesus!

Foxid · Venter Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 298

The typical furry artist will draw in order to A) produce own fetish wank material, or B) get praised by sycophant furries, or C) both.

A) Weren't we just talking about Kelly Price a few days ago? :D
B) See: Any angsty teenage 'artist' on VCL

Don't forget the money. See: Michelle Light, Jim Groat, most of the other con-circuit crowd.

The only person I've met in the fandom that I'd consider a 'true artist' is the guy who goes by "Paf". (Can't think of his real name at the moment). Not only is he an exceptionally nice guy in person, he's not afraid to experiment with different ways of creating 'art'; and when I chatted with him, he said he was -never- happy with his own work, always seeing his own flaws and working to improve. Yeah, he pulls in a ton of money from cons, and after meeting him in person, I totally think he's one of the rare popular artists that deserves it.

I tried to think of any reasons that AP and Barry may have missed, but aside from plain ol' apathy, they've summed it up pretty well. I'm sure that other 'fandoms' have the same kinds of crappy art for the same kinds of reasons, but I'd find it hard to believe any of them had it to the extent that furries do.

Tailgunner · Vociferator Joined: 28 Oct 2003 Posts: 327

I think Barry Scott and AngryPuritan got most of the reasons for the non-development of many furry artists down to a tee.

Any good artist will be versatile. Many who choose to draw in highly cartoony styles can usually draw "for real" as well, because even if you make very simplified art, you have to understand what it is you simplify. The single best way of improving drawing skill is to draw from life, which is where so many furry artists fail - they start out by copying some other furry artist, and never grasp the fundamentals of anatomy, etc.

If I was going to learn how to draw a human with a dogs head, I would learn to draw a human body. Of course HOOMINS ARE EVIL!!!!111 so I'm sure a lot of them wouldn't even consider this.

I don't think it's that fucked up. IMO it's just because many furry "artists" aren't really into it for the art, so they don't bother improving by, say, taking drawing classes. A real artist will draw for the sake of drawing, for the sake of improving his/her skill. The typical furry artist will draw in order to A) produce own fetish wank material, or B) get praised by sycophant furries, or C) both. So of course they only draw yiffy foxtaurs or whatever. It's not about developing as an artist, it's about the benefits it can give. It's the difference between art as an end in itself and art as a means to an end. There's no reason to improve your art, no matter how hideous it is, if it gives you the hard-on or the accolades you seek, and you don't want anything else from it.

My favourite case in point has to be Tony Handlir (NSFW). It boggles the mind that he can draw so much for so long and STILL not improve one iota!

Handlir's stuff is crummy all right, but he's got nothing on Urban Hermit, who's got almost three fucking thousand pics in his archive, and the shit he drew back in 1982 looks exactly like the shit he drew yesterday.

Oh for the love of fucking God, tell me his kid took over drawing that pile.

20 years and not one iota of improvement? AND pumps out commisions?

Would you people please stop the world for a second? I would like to get off, thank you.

Captain Cowgirl · Needs to get out more Joined: 27 May 2005 Posts: 1091

Ha, I've tried to get better. I'm not sure if I have though. My techniques and such have definetley changed over time.
I drew alot of 'inspiration' from some popular furry artists...trying to imitate coloring techniques, ect. I eventually found my own style, but it's constantly changing.

baserock love · Vociferator Joined: 04 Dec 2004 Posts: 685

I think reference is the key, none of them use anythign besides animals for various heads/tails. I got very good at drawing realistic anatomy from my head due to just studying anatomy books and my drawings looked good, they were very stiff and and didn't look natural however. When i acctually started art college and was forced to endure countless figure drawing classes i realized my problem was gesture, my drawings had NON. You don't need to use a pose reference for every drawing (this is a bad idea for the serious artist), but you need to draw from photos and live models a lot to understand weight distribution and hip/shoulder angle relationships to get decent looking lively poses.

Alos heads and hands, the two most gestural parts of the human body are also the hardest to draw properly, i imagine this is too big a mountain for most furry artists to even attempt to tackle

Monkey King · Vociferator Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 459

Heads are pretty much where it's game over for furries. To draw a furry you take a human head as a base and add animal features, or you use an animal head and add human features to it. Either way, in order to make it work, you have to be capable of drawing both human and animal heads. Sorry furries; you have to learn to draw humans.

Furry artists can do neither; it's painfully obvious that they just copy one another ad nauseum. Somewhere there's the rare talented furry artist who knows how to do it right, and everyone copied him/her without having any idea of the mechanics behind it. Their heads keep coming out like crap, and I bet they can't figure out why.

I should know; I tried "cheating" and starting from the middle myself. The results were passable, and I got some good responses (there's that acceptance thing again), but I could tell myself that I really had no idea what I was really doing.

baserock love · Vociferator Joined: 04 Dec 2004 Posts: 685

LOL

Best timing ever

http://fchan.hentaiplanet.net/m/res/19060.html

NSFW

Charisma · Vociferator Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 326

I've discovered that with some of my online friends, but I came to the conclusion that perhaps they were just never meant to draw and its not one of their talents. I think it is possible for them to learn, but only if they can see their own faults. If they churn out the same furry picture in the same pose again and again, I've found they can still even be bizzarrely proud of it, as if their blind to what it actually is. They seem happy enough though, and if they arn't trying to make a career out of it or anything I don't see a problem with it or a point in shattering their dreams.

Paul · Needs to get out more Joined: 01 Feb 2004 Posts: 1092

LOL

Best timing ever

http://fchan.hentaiplanet.net/m/res/19060.html

Holy cow, that's quite simply fantastic. A lame-butt furry wank picture badly traced, and the "artist" behind the copycat pic FLAT OUT DENIES having traced it!

the origonal image truly captured how i feel about my ex so i sat down and stared at a copy of the origonal image and i free hand sketched my randition and re worked it and then coloered it then inked it all free hand yes it was inspired and basiced of of another image but i was not trying to steal any ones work i was inspired by a the image and thus created one very similer not stealing it stealing would be saying the origonal was mine and its not but my vershion is an origonal

Whenever I think this whole CYD "laugh at furry stupidity" thing is getting old, comedy gold gets served on a silver platter!

no mate what you belive i dont trace i have been doing furry art for close to 15 years my web page has been on furnation since the beginning of funation ihave NEVER traced anything in my life! i have been to college for art and illistration i can draw anything i can see almost flawlessly that comes from a good education in the arts

AH HA HA HA HA

Stoneth · Needs to get out more Joined: 01 Dec 2004 Posts: 1225

I have a book on animation written by Richard Williams, the Director of Animation for "Who Framed Roger Rabbit". Early in the book it includes a copy of a note someone had pinned on their notice board during the the making of WFRR:

* Epitaph of an Unfortunate Artist *

He found a formula
for drawing
comic rabbits:
This formula for
drawing comic
rabbits paid,
So in the end he
could not
change the
traggic habits
This formula for
drawing comic
rabbits made.

- Robert Graves -

Sound familiar? After this the author goes on to say, "Life drawing is the antidote to this."

TheBobSays · Venter Joined: 19 Jun 2005 Posts: 236

I've discovered that with some of my online friends, but I came to the conclusion that perhaps they were just never meant to draw and its not one of their talents. I think it is possible for them to learn, but only if they can see their own faults.

Like mentioned before, constructive criticism. Key here is not only to say what's good but what parts are good, what parts are bad, and why.
Blind trolling of 'Horrible picture, it sucks' and blind praise of 'I wish I could draw that good! Wingsnugs!' both amount to a loud buzzing noise in terms of actual betterment. I've had two oppurtunities to play drawing drill sargeant, and have cherished both of them.

The first is a good real friend of mine, who does not have the natural drawing talent that others do. He's come to acknowledge and combat this. He's even got a shelf full of those "How to draw" books. But over the years, you can see actual, obvious improvement.

The second is an online friend, and I'd be confident in saying that her talent far surpasses my own. But all the poses were coming out the same, all the characters lacking a certain spark. She was in a rut, and she knew it. She'd ask for opinions, advice, and get back only the useless buzzing praise.

It was an interesting feeling, giving honest blunt constructive criticism in that situation. It's one thing when the art is so obviously in need of help. It's different when the artist knows something is missing, and it's far hidden beneath the surface, that it's a task to simply put your finger on it.

If they churn out the same furry picture in the same pose again and again, I've found they can still even be bizzarrely proud of it, as if their blind to what it actually is. They seem happy enough though, and if they arn't trying to make a career out of it or anything I don't see a problem with it or a point in shattering their dreams.

They are blind to it. Since they do not understand what makes art good (body structure, shading, texture, layout, etc.), they not only can't draw good art, but they cannnot tell what art is good. They do not know, and they do not know that they don't know.

Depends on the friend and whether it's worth the risk. There is the danger of shattering their dreams. But if they're not pushed out of their zone of comfort, they'll never be able to realize anything better, and will never know the joy of having actually improved.

Edit: Jeez, I'm spammy. I need to go back to one-line quips.

Holy cow, that's quite simply fantastic. A lame-butt furry wank picture badly traced, and the "artist" behind the copycat pic FLAT OUT DENIES having traced it!

The first image is 404ed, but I'd wager a guess that it has more 'Donut Steel', copyright, and watermarks crap than the actual, non-traced drawing.

Ruphia · Qualificator Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 24

Alos heads and hands, the two most gestural parts of the human body are also the hardest to draw properly, i imagine this is too big a mountain for most furry artists to even attempt to tackle

This is why you see so much furry artwork where the hands are behind the back, and the head is just cocked at that identical "hay i hav a hed" angle in every drawing.

But someone tell me why the feet always, always, /always/ go off the page. I mean, yeah, sometimes you're not drawing a whole figure, but why draw legs at all if they cut off at the ankle every time?

Cephus · Prattler Joined: 19 May 2005 Posts: 107

Furries don't improve because they don't have to improve. Even people who can't draw a stick figure can do a squiggle, stick ears and a tail on it and have furries begging them for commissions. Furries will buy anything with fur so why bother improving? Or practicing? It's all a big circlejerk where you can't DARE tell a furry artist that his art sucks. It's intolerant!

That said, the overwhelming majority of so-called artists are utterly pathetic and need to have their fingers broken.

Charisma · Vociferator Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 326

They are blind to it. Since they do not understand what makes art good (body structure, shading, texture, layout, etc.), they not only can't draw good art, but they cannnot tell what art is good. They do not know, and they do not know that they don't know.

Depends on the friend and whether it's worth the risk. There is the danger of shattering their dreams. But if they're not pushed out of their zone of comfort, they'll never be able to realize anything better, and will never know the joy of having actually improved.

I think I'm guilty of that in my own art as a matter of fact. I'm not sure which are the actual good or bad bits, but thats what college seems to help me out with. The internet helps, but I get next to no help at all from real friends and family. Its frustrating.

I did actually advise this person to NOT take their crappy pencil art dragon furries to their Graphic Design interview but they wouldn't listen to me, mostly because that's all they brought with them, and they got turned down. I think they were pretty beyond advice, although I would have tried harder if it were a real friend

Barry Scott · Prattler Joined: 09 May 2005 Posts: 152

But someone tell me why the feet always, always, /always/ go off the page. I mean, yeah, sometimes you're not drawing a whole figure, but why draw legs at all if they cut off at the ankle every time?

Feet aren't as hard as say, hands, but are still tricky in their own right. What DOES happen with feet is it shows up how badly the rest of the body was done. If the stance and the weight of the figure is wrong then you'll NEVER get the feet to look right.

(Edit: 100th post! Yay is me! What did I win?)

baserock love · Vociferator Joined: 04 Dec 2004 Posts: 685

But someone tell me why the feet always, always, /always/ go off the page. I mean, yeah, sometimes you're not drawing a whole figure, but why draw legs at all if they cut off at the ankle every time?

I think it's because they start the drawing with a cock, and work outwords from there, that can make it difficult to have a nice composition

Pikachang · Qualificator Joined: 10 May 2005 Posts: 18

Bah, you don't need to be good at drawing for people to like it... just go for the weird fetishes.

Sixtail · Coadjutor Joined: 30 Aug 2004 Posts: 93

The only person I've met in the fandom that I'd consider a 'true artist' is the guy who goes by "Paf". (Can't think of his real name at the moment). Not only is he an exceptionally nice guy in person, he's not afraid to experiment with different ways of creating 'art'; and when I chatted with him, he said he was -never- happy with his own work, always seeing his own flaws and working to improve. Yeah, he pulls in a ton of money from cons, and after meeting him in person, I totally think he's one of the rare popular artists that deserves it.

Chris Goodwin. And yeah, Paf is kickass, but art is not only what he does for a living, it's his passion. He does more then draw, he's done a little of fucking EVERYTHING and ANYTHING artwise I can think of. He's one of the true furry artists who can be truthfully be called a artist, but then again he doesn't draw all that much smut and from my view, he's withdrawn quite a bit from the fandom over the years after his breakup with his ex boyfriend and finding a girlfriend. I have two commissions from him and they rule.

Shawntae Howard is also someone who I feel is a artist and he can very well indeed draw more then furries. And boy has he improved but then he's one of the "child artists" who started when he was in grade school and kept going. Shawn draws a lot of fur stuff, but look at what he did a year ago and now and you can see the improvement, always.

Furry artists who suck will always suck because they are too protected and too quick to summon the flames of drama should they be told they suck.