Crush...Yiff...Destroy!

Repomancer · Posted: 7/13/2003 6:36:27 PM Post subject: character copyrights

(I may be veering dangerously off-topic here; apologies if so.)

A couple of other threads made reference to copyrighted characters (as in "I don't get off to them", etc.), and in Jerry Collins' recently posted set of pictures, he carefully notes the copyright holders of the various characters.

There's only one problem: Ain't no such thing as a copyrighted character. A character is not a copyrightable entity. It's a common misconception; even artists as skilled and experienced as Mr. Collins (who has obviously been around the block a few times) misunderstand the principle.

Works are copyrightable. That means images, writings, music, what have you. When you draw an image of something, you automatically hold the copyright to that image (unless you were doing it for hire); there are qualifications, of course, and there are still reasons to sometimes seek a more formal copyright (and to display a copyright notice) but I won't go into them.

Suppose you create a character, and draw a picture of it. The picture is copyrighted, and cannot be used or reproduced without your permission (with certain exceptions, like fair-use and parody). The character, however, is strictly public-domain. The character is an idea, and you can't copyright ideas. If I want to draw Kim Keister's Road Rover character, there's absolutely nothing she can do about it - putting MADDAWG (C) KIMBERLY ANN KEISTER in big red letters means less than nothing. No lawyer could be persuaded to LAWSUITE.

But - you say - if I start selling the Mickey Mouse porn I like to draw, Disney's lawyers will come down on me like a pack of rabid wolverines. That's true. But for trademark violation, not copyright. Trademarks are a whole 'nother ball game; they're a lot harder to get and are never automatically granted to anything. Characters, in certain circumstances, can be trademarked. Bugs Bunny is trademarked. So is Harry Potter.

I ran across this example recently: Kim Newman, author of the Anno Dracula series (I heartily recommend The Bloody Red Baron), used Anne Rice's character Lestat de Lioncourt in one of his books. He can do that; Lestat isn't (and probably couldn't be) trademarked, and, as a character, he's not copyrightable. Now if Anne Rice were to lift the passage about Lestat from Newman's book verbatim and use it in one of her books, she would be guilty of copyright violation - even though it's her own character.

So anyway. Cthulhu isn't (c) by Arkham House, the estate of H.P. Lovecraft, or anyone else. You can draw all the Cthulhu pictures or write all the fanfiction you want, you just can't reproduce the (copyrighted) stories. Characters from The Wizard of Oz aren't copyrighted by MGM or the estate of L. Frank Baum; the film The Wizard of Oz certainly is (c) MGM (or Turner, or whoever owns it), so don't get caught selling DVDs you burned yourself, but knock yourself out with the fanfic if that punches your ticket. However, Harry Potter is TM by J.K. Rowling, so writers of Potter slashfic are on shaky ground if the author or publisher decide to come after them.

On a side note, no one need feel guilty about spanking it to copyrighted characters, because there is no such thing. :lol:

edited because of DING-DONG VERB TENSES, which I can never do properly on Sundays.

Mitch · Posted: 7/13/2003 7:39:43 PM Post subject:

Now that was educational!

A note (applicable in the UK, I don't know about the US): (R) means a registered trademark, and TM signifies an unregistered trademark. Only the registered one (R) has legal protection, the TM sort is only protected by common law.

PS: The Bloody Red Baron is great. If you haven't read the (sort of) sequel, Dracula Cha Cha Cha, run out and do so NOW.

Anonymous · Posted: 7/14/2003 6:06:13 AM Post subject:

Repomancer :roll: you just don't get do ya hon'?the whole copyright thing is (a) an act of psuedo leagalistic self preservation and..(b)My own,stupid little way of giving RESPECT and authorship to it's orinal creator(unlike some pin heads that used MY characters with out ME BLOODY DAMNED PERMISSION! :evil: :lol: :lol: :lol: )okay...do you now understand WHY IN THE SMEGGING HELL I DO IT???please say you do :wink: :lol: one of the things that has always stuck in my craw is people (fan and non fan alike) who pishker away all the energies,getting all bent out of shape over pointless details and trivial flaws in a piece of art,a book, life,people... :roll: remember what Andy Parson of X.T.C. said once.."life's too bloody short for BOLLOX!"no doubt you'll reply with a very detailed and researched comment on how frightfully wrong I am..to which I'll simply smile sweetly and say"FEH".."who cares?"GO OUT AND A HAVE A LAGER ON ME,AND ENJOY THIS SHORT SWEET SILLINESS WE CALL LIFE :D :wink: :D AND REMEMBER,LIFE IS LIKE A LADY MIDGET WRESTLER,SHORT,TOUGH AND BEAUTIFUL!This is Jerry Collins,professional grade idiot,signing out! :D :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anonymous · Posted: 7/14/2003 6:17:56 AM Post subject: oops

:oops: sorry folks,that should be"ORIGINAL" not orinal..orinal?Hmmmm,isn't that a town in Wales? :wink: It's 2:00 a.m. est here,so i should take my innsomniac sad sack self to sleep :) peace out party people!

Repomancer · Posted: 7/14/2003 7:37:22 AM Post subject:

S'coo, bro. Apologies for not getting the joke. I should learn never to post until I've had a few, and can think clearly . . . it's always a Good Thing to give props. Having said lager even as we speak. 8) Cheers, ears.

One thing I was going to mention in the first post, but didn't - because I didn't want to name any names and possibly open up a can of worms - was the tale of one of my close friends (it's probably not giving too much away to say that he drew Ren & Stimpy for several years, and produced a few episodes) who had one of his characters ripped off and used in a major animated movie. His character was then trademarked by the moviemaker. (I've seen it in his portfolio, dated two years before the movie came out.) All of which sucks, but there wasn't really anything he could do about it. He really doesn't care - thinks it's kind of funny, but still.

Peece,
-r

Anonymous · Posted: 7/15/2003 5:22:59 AM Post subject: Previous

Hmmm,sounds like the time a well meaning friend of my "alerted 'me to Disney's fawn deer(Hey!JER!these bums are stealing your Hasin characters!)but what my friend didn't realize is that they have the mega bucks,and I have bubkiss!Me?sue Dis-corp?HAH!yes,yes,Yeah..and I'm gonna take on the entire Israeli army armed with a wet napkin and win...NOT!! In an Ideal Universe,maybe,but not this one brothers&sisters!

Computolio · Posted: 7/15/2003 6:15:08 AM Post subject:

For some reason I keep forgetting that characters cannot be copyrighted, only trademarked. Must be all the furry shit I keep seeing.

It's nice to know that the law doesn't even pretend to stand behind all the shitheads who think their MUCK character designs are original and worthy of protection.

-duncan

Anonymous · Posted: 7/15/2003 3:34:14 PM Post subject: previous

When,as a teen,I began to hear all the nasty crap that the boys at"Mauswich" were commiting,I felt a massive feeling of betrayal by a childhood friend,and since then,have fantasized about Mr.Eisner's cash cow being sold off to the slaughter house and the characters" trademarks/copyrights becomming non sequitor and public domain..I know it won"t happen,ever,but I can dream can"t I?I love the disney critters,I JUST HATE THE EVIL CORPERATION THAT OWNS THEM!yes,I'm a fool,but I put my cards on the table,speak with a honest heart,and humble myself when I am in the wrong....unlike some folks we ALL know."Sic exitus octo probat"..."Ya getz what youse gives,bub!"(Jerry)

DA

A Copyright is legal and binding on a idea that is put into tangible form.

Trademark is a legal recognised image relating to a company. Ie show someone Mickey mouse and they say Disney, same for the yellow M for macdonalds.

I create a character, it is indeed copyrighted from the moment I put it down in tangible form.

I have no idea where you got the idea that characters are public domain but they are not, if someone steals my character I could indeed sue for copyright infringement.

NOTHING is public domain nowadays unless declared public domain.

If you take a character and redraw it is is counted as a Derivative work, you cannot claim a derivative work as your own unless you created the character in the first place. The only thing you can say it is, is fan work or a derivative work.

This is a good site on copyrights, some of the links go into more depth.

http://aimee.wyvernweb.com/copyright/links.html

Read, learn, take more care when making statements.

Mitch · Posted: 7/16/2003 6:36:20 PM Post subject:

See also this informative webpage on Protection of Graphic Characters.

Jerry Collins · Posted: 7/16/2003 7:49:47 PM Post subject:

I seem to be having a Problem with my replies,well ,here we go again!MITCH: good info!Da: sorry boyo!you missed my point compleatly!it was a rant!it was my feelings about DISNEYKORPZ!IT IS CALLED AN OPINION! and the next time you ask me if I know what I'm talking about,MAKE BLOODY SURE YOU DO THE SAME!you waste my time childe!BE GONE!(or at least,go out and get laid..it's obvious you need it!) (Jerry)

The New Meat

A Copyright is legal and binding on a idea that is put into tangible form.

Trademark is a legal recognised image relating to a company. Ie show someone Mickey mouse and they say Disney, same for the yellow M for macdonalds.

I create a character, it is indeed copyrighted from the moment I put it down in tangible form.

Are you sure? I think he's right; when you put something in tangible form, you're really only copyrighting that particular picture of the character not the character itself. Characters- especially cartoon characters - can be copyrighted if they're part of "a story being told," meaning that they're really closely associated with a particular larger creative work. Although I think that might be old law that's not in effect anymore.

The New Meat · Posted: 7/16/2003 8:04:00 PM Post subject:

Oh, sorry, didn't see the link there. I'd better go check that out, since I might just be repeating stuff that everyone else knows now. Or I might just be totally off my rocker.

DA · Posted: 7/16/2003 8:21:36 PM Post subject: Try reading again...

Jerry collins,

Whatever gave you the idea I was replying to your post, I didn't even read your 'rant' closely lacking as it did a few spaces and breaks to make me want to read it.

Your second little rant was about something that had nothing to do with you, I was actually replying to Repomancer's starting statement.

Furthermore I am not a child, I am an Adult and was venturing a informed opinion on a subject that is important to me, After all I am an artist so knowing copyright information is important to me.

May I suggest you make sure a post is to you before taking it as gospel that any reply after yours must be to such an obviously important personage as yourself.

Oh yes and my slogan isn't cornball, It happens to mean something to me, you have absolutely NO right to tell me what I can and can't have as my signature. You can have an opinion but do not spam my pm box with your all caps notes.

The new meat> Well It still apply to characters otherwise we could all run around stealing of each other, but only to original character, IE an interpretation of Anubis, lord of the dead would not count as it's not an original. And no corporation bothers to trademark the bit characters like every single piece of furniture in beauty and beast to give an example, they are still covered under copyright though.

Jerry Collins · Posted: 7/16/2003 9:13:37 PM Post subject:

Grow the Hell up...CHILD! :mrgreen:

Jerry Collins · Posted: 7/16/2003 9:39:29 PM Post subject: ibid

And might I add,again,and again.....GROW UP!GROW UP!GROW UP!.....silly plonk!

Jerry Collins · Posted: 7/16/2003 9:49:19 PM Post subject: ibid redeux

AND(everybody lustily cheer) that is all I have to say on this mess...now on to better things...Hey,Repomancer,your'e a well of info...what's all this brew-ha-ha about a c.g.i./live action "Cheech Wizard" flick?if true ,I hope they don't botch it...if not,well,it was one Hell of a rumor!Maybe you or mitch can dig this up?Hey ,it beats everybody having to watch me and the clueless bap each other around!your fellow fiend(Jerry Collins)

The New Meat · Posted: 7/17/2003 3:15:40 AM Post subject:

DA: You were right, my bad. I was apparently getting graphic characters confused with fictional characters (ones who are only described in words as opposed to being drawn). So it seems that graphic characters can be copyrighted but fictional ones can't, except as part of a story being told. I think. Sorry if I'm not making sense. Copyright has to be one of the most needlessly complicated areas of law there is, seeing as how so much depends not on the material that you're trying to copyright but on the date that you try to copyright it.

mouse · Posted: 7/17/2003 4:50:03 AM Post subject: lawyers

i think theres a very important point being missed here

it doesnt matter if you have a trademark, a copyright, a patent or anything

you have to be able to DEFEND it
and that costs $$$

whats stopping disney from yoinking someones character off of yerf or something like that? if they could make an animated film that would pull in billions, hey, it just might be a financially sound decision to do so

that artist may think they have an "open and shut" case, but its not gonna be that way when thier $50k lawyer faces off against a whole legal dept of a corporation in court. the corporation could drag proceedings out for years and drain a plaintiff dry, or nitpick a judgement till its virtually a slap on the wrist for them

you see this over and over again

ed roth's family had tons of problems with stuff like this after he died. all the rat fink merchandise and his other creations. if i remeber correctly (check ratfink.org or .com whichever if you want to look it up)

Genghis · Posted: 7/17/2003 12:10:06 PM Post subject: Re: lawyers

that artist may think they have an "open and shut" case, but its not gonna be that way when thier $50k lawyer faces off against a whole legal dept of a corporation in court. the corporation could drag proceedings out for years and drain a plaintiff dry, or nitpick a judgement till its virtually a slap on the wrist for them

See, this is one of the few good things about living in the UK - the government put in legislation specifically to prevent these sort of tactics. Of course, in the situation you describe, odds are that Disney or whoever could win anyway, most likely on the grounds that purple foxes with a generic personalities aren't exactly masterpieces of creativity that nobody else would have thought of without outside assistance...

DA · Posted: 7/17/2003 4:47:58 PM Post subject: Well thought out point.

However most big corporations generally don't need to steal to get great ideas that's what they have think tanks for, most copyright infringement is carried out by 12 year old Aol users who think that since it's online they can take it.

Jerry Collins> Are you actually going to make an intelligent contribution to the discussion?

Repromancer> Referring to you starting statement on copyright, how about some links showing your sources?

Jerry Collins · Posted: 7/17/2003 10:01:17 PM Post subject: ibid

am I going to make an Intelligent comment on this subject?............................NOPE!.....if you look at the earlier messages,you will see that I had said what I said,and that was that!I'm DONE with it!Why?do you want me to pick on and tease you?Are you some repressed masochistic little girl that likes to beaten with motorcycle chains?For God's sake CHILD!I finished! My part of the disscussion was over! I had quit the field to go elsewhere!SO STOP BRINGING ME BACK YOU STUPID LITTLE FAN GIRL!let the nasty old man be...If you are wise.(Jer)

"If you shoot at the Moon,YOU'LL BE ARRESTED BY THE GALAXY POLICE!!!!"

Jerry Collins · Posted: 7/17/2003 10:22:10 PM Post subject: And Now, my Daughter Brigit

Ummmm... I am an AOL user, I am 13 and I DON'T DO THIS CRAP.....So There! :P and by the way Gene-ass, way is spelled W-A-Y

If you shoot at the moon, it'll probably shoot back!!! :mrgreen:

mouse · Posted: 8/23/2003 8:35:36 AM Post subject: Re: Well thought out point.

i think theres a very important point being missed here

it doesnt matter if you have a trademark, a copyright, a patent or anything

you have to be able to DEFEND it

However most big corporations generally don't need to steal to get great ideas that's what they have think tanks for, most copyright infringement is carried out by 12 year old Aol users who think that since it's online they can take it.

old topic but i ran across a site yesterday while i was looking for something and thought it was relevant to this thread

[url>http://www.kimbawlion.com/rant2.htm

as you can clearly see "disney's" the lion king was supposed to be a kimba remake, but they lost rights or something , changed some stuff around and called it original

i think they even mention in here that
they probably found out that they didnt or no longer had rights to it, but since they had invested money, decided to go ahead anyway ..
how much did the lion king take in at the box office? how much from all other related sales, VHS, toys, and suff like that? ..to date, im sure they havent paid a dime
and according to this , lawsuits were still going on almost 10 years later (may still be)

(to any kimba fans or people who have been aware of this for 10 years, sorry for posting OLD NEWS)