Crush...Yiff...Destroy!

Ole Sparky · Qualificator Joined: 07 Nov 2003 Posts: 21

I don't know what moment of insanity led me to deal with that question.
Now there as them that say Furry is a Sub-Culture, with Ears and a Tail, apart from, and "better" then humanity.
'Cuse me... They do not live apart from this world.
And others say "It's a Fandom" and point to Startrek.
I don't think so myself.
Mitch, Computolio, worthwhile quote coming up.
"Furry Fandom is a Cult, a Heavens Gate with Ears and a Tail."
Cyanide pudding optional.
Seriously, think about it.
How do all of us learn from the world?
Critique, open and honest.
What drives Furry ape poop?
Critique, open and honest.
Furry is stuck with a handful of artists, the core of the fandom.
In the meantime any concept of Anthropomorphics, any use of anthropomorphic beings in story and/or art is stuck with being compared to Furry, to the Horace Horsecollar Hentai sites, the Land Before Time embarrassements, the Brother Bear kitty porn, Chester, Lark, Rose and Thorn, Cub Central, Treehouse of the Secret Moon, too many websites that graphically illuminate an overweight male with his joy deep in a plush toy.
If you hope for anything better, a better day for Anthro, I fear so much you are doomed to disappointment.
And the apologists say, if you don't like it, don't look, but there ain't a warning label.
I am a lot angry, I am a writer of Anthro stories, I write of other worlds and cultures. I try to explore souls, interactions, motivations.
I get seriously ticked off when I hear some good Furry tell me, "If you don't want the Furvert label, don't do the art." And it has been said publicly.
Your pardon, but, excuse me, but since when the crap has an artistic Genre been the private possession of a handful of less than competent artists(and throughly incompetent business gits)
If they were competent, they would not be relying on a small handfull of sycopants and suckers.
I write stories, I use them to explore and reflect, not our, or my sexuality, but our world and hopes.
I have been cheated too often by Furry, lied to, cheated, insulted, while good Furry's happily skritch.
Ole Sparky

Sulaco · Rasophore Joined: 28 Oct 2003 Posts: 61

"Furry Fandom is a Cult, a Heavens Gate with Ears and a Tail."
Cyanide pudding optional.
Seriously, think about it.
How do all of us learn from the world?
Critique, open and honest.
What drives Furry ape poop?
Critique, open and honest.

A splendid way of putting it. Furries and weres (as well as anime artists while we're at it) are some of the WORST people when it comes to giving constructive criticism. Normally I'd gladly share one of my more adventerous stories involving bitter rejected Yerf applicants whipping up a drama shitstorm because somebody pointed out that they can't draw legs or copied someone, but there've been so many recently that the collective memories have all combined into this horrible, bloated, Tetsuo-like mass in the back of my subconcious.

But I disagree a bit with some of your other points. Things aren't THAT bleak when it comes to anthropomorphics (as in, without the ~`*furry!*`~). There'll always be a minority of people who'll just never like anything you do, but the use of anthropomorphics in more professional circles really isn't shunned as badly as you might think. I already said this in a recent thread on the eat_all_furries LJ community, but from all the countless contacts I've made in the illustration/animation/concept art deal, the closest to discouraging advice I've heard when it comes to anthropomorphics is 'If you're skilled, nobody could care less if you've got a few characters with animal heads. Just don't make them the centerpiece of your portfolio.'

And as I pointed out in another thread here, there's TONS of big name professionals into anthro-junk. Tony Diterlizzi portrays himself as a stork in a lot of his drawings and nobody raises an eyebrow, Anthony Waters of D&D illustration fame has a couple animal-head people on his website, Timothy Albee goes without saying, and so on. Art directors know how to tell apart the art of a furfreak and someone who's got a broader sense of imagination.

Unfortunately I don't know if this is all the same for the sci-fi/fantasy writing arenas. I can only speak for illustration here..

Pycnopodia · Coadjutor Joined: 31 Dec 2003 Posts: 72

It makes me sad when I think about what happend to this wonderful art. It is almost as if it is a bad thing to be a furry now.
A man does not change a bit if he either starts liking or stops liking furry, I think it is strange so many forum people dont understand this.
I have never experienced anything even remotely negative to furry that is not coming from some forum user or some guy typing over the internet or some forum user I happen to know in real life.
I think of furry as little more then an art style.

DA · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 320

Art style? it's an art SUBJECT not an art style. Get it right :P

Ethan A. Stanger · Rasophore Joined: 23 Oct 2003 Posts: 53

Art style? it's an art SUBJECT not an art style. Get it right :P

Exactly. I don't know why it's thought of as an art style.

Pycnopodia · Coadjutor Joined: 31 Dec 2003 Posts: 72

Note to self, Ignore DA from now on :P
Na Im just kidding, Ill try to remember that.

Genghis · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 186

In most places I'd consider it an artistic device rather than subject.

Imagine an anime-style picture of a cat on a spaceship battling astro-zombies with mind lasers. The style is anime, the subject is sci-fi space opera, and giving the main character ears and a tail is an artistic device.
Then again, this is becoming that whole "anthropomorphics versus furry" thing, so I'll shut up now.

Anonymous · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 767

"Furry Fandom is a Cult, a Heavens Gate with Ears and a Tail."
Cyanide pudding optional.
Seriously, think about it.
How do all of us learn from the world?
Critique, open and honest.
What drives Furry ape poop?
Critique, open and honest.

A splendid way of putting it. Furries and weres (as well as anime artists while we're at it) are some of the WORST people when it comes to giving constructive criticism. Normally I'd gladly share one of my more adventerous stories involving bitter rejected Yerf applicants whipping up a drama shitstorm because somebody pointed out that they can't draw legs or copied someone, but there've been so many recently that the collective memories have all combined into this horrible, bloated, Tetsuo-like mass in the back of my subconcious.
But I disagree a bit with some of your other points. Things aren't THAT bleak when it comes to anthropomorphics (as in, without the ~`*furry!*`~). There'll always be a minority of people who'll just never like anything you do, but the use of anthropomorphics in more professional circles really isn't shunned as badly as you might think. I already said this in a recent thread on the eat_all_furries LJ community, but from all the countless contacts I've made in the illustration/animation/concept art deal, the closest to discouraging advice I've heard when it comes to anthropomorphics is 'If you're skilled, nobody could care less if you've got a few characters with animal heads. Just don't make them the centerpiece of your portfolio.'

And as I pointed out in another thread here, there's TONS of big name professionals into anthro-junk. Tony Diterlizzi portrays himself as a stork in a lot of his drawings and nobody raises an eyebrow, Anthony Waters of D&D illustration fame has a couple animal-head people on his website, Timothy Albee goes without saying, and so on. Art directors know how to tell apart the art of a furfreak and someone who's got a broader sense of imagination.
Umm, Okay, yeh, Lets's hold Tim Albee under the heading of a truly "Happy Thought" YEH! Now to scrape up th bucks. Okay and flat out, support, if you can, his genius and work.
But the rest of the fandom, like I said, I write anthro stories, I meet with a writers group of non-anthro writers. We are polite and professional in our critiques, because we are all friends, and care about each other,
But for that very same caring, we don't cut each other slack, we rip each other's stories apart because we do care.
We care enough that we want each other to succeed. We care enough so we try to help each other do the best and correct mistakes.

Unfortunately I don't know if this is all the same for the sci-fi/fantasy writing arenas. I can only speak for illustration here..

Understood.
Which, if I may offer you a suggestion to consider, and perhaps CYD as well.
Illustration is Wonderful! and no arguments. I have purchased some illustrated novels, Norton, Anderson, Brooks, seen illustrations, Brothers Hildebrant, Frazetta. I have seen what can be achieved with a fusion of graphics and word.
And, as you mentioned, I have had the opportunity to see highlights of Mr. Albee's seminal work, "Ghost Warrior".
I get bitter about "Furry", sometimes more than I should.
Wouldn't it be nice to draw together artists and writers and produce an anthro work.
But Sulaco, CYD, do please understand, I have watched Furry since '85'. The pleas for support, and somehow I feel anthro is worse of now, poorer, then we were then. Too many titles have gone down. And, turns out this writers group I meet with, one of the gents actually knew some ex-furries, heard why they left.
But at least One Thing went right this weekend. I understand the Mars Lander Spirit is on the ground and sending back pictures.
Ole Sparky

Sulaco · Rasophore Joined: 28 Oct 2003 Posts: 61

Understood.
Which, if I may offer you a suggestion to consider, and perhaps CYD as well.
Illustration is Wonderful! and no arguments. I have purchased some illustrated novels, Norton, Anderson, Brooks, seen illustrations, Brothers Hildebrant, Frazetta. I have seen what can be achieved with a fusion of graphics and word.
And, as you mentioned, I have had the opportunity to see highlights of Mr. Albee's seminal work, "Ghost Warrior".
I get bitter about "Furry", sometimes more than I should.
Wouldn't it be nice to draw together artists and writers and produce an anthro work.
But Sulaco, CYD, do please understand, I have watched Furry since '85'. The pleas for support, and somehow I feel anthro is worse of now, poorer, then we were then. Too many titles have gone down. And, turns out this writers group I meet with, one of the gents actually knew some ex-furries, heard why they left.
But at least One Thing went right this weekend. I understand the Mars Lander Spirit is on the ground and sending back pictures.
Ole Sparky

Anthropomorphics does have a less professional reputation now than it did in the 80s, for sure. But it would take a REALLY damnably big world-smashing-hermaphroditic-scat-smeared-lensflared-gryphonwolftaur for use of anthro-animals to become totally scorned in the professional world. It'd have to manage to taint everything from Usagi Yojimbo to Starfox to Maus to children's books. A lot of people know the big difference between outright furry art (furry in the sense of -today's- fandom: bad art, little imagination, no backgrounds, no skill) and simple anthropomorphics, enough to say that things aren't hopeless, just more complicated.

Then again, I'm not a professional yet myself. Right now my experience for all this is mostly limited to extensive contacts with current professionals, and the EatPoo crowd of rising professionals. I've been posting a lot of my anthropomorphic work there, and for a place that's known for its elitism and vicious hatred of furry art (as well as anime and a few other genres), I've gotten nothing but constructive art critique and positive feedback. Storytelling with anthropomorphics - perhaps in a more 'children's book'-ish or old fashioned style - is still very appreciated. Buuut I think now I'm starting to talk myself in a circle, you get the idea.

Fins · Qualificator Joined: 19 Dec 2003 Posts: 25

Right now my experience for all this is mostly limited to extensive contacts with current professionals, and the EatPoo crowd of rising professionals.

Eat Poo, huh? While the name doesn't exactly inspire visions of professionalism for me, the site seems ok. If anything, a cursory overview of the other artists' work confirms that not all bad art is furry art, just like not all 'furry' art is bad art (though there is a lot of terrifyingly bad furry art elsewhere on the web). I will have to check out that site further. Looks interesting.

But back to the question of "Furry." I don't know if it will ruin anthropomorphics for me. Even if "Furry" becomes an entirely fetid mephitic cesspool of stink. As with almost everything these days, there are smutty and/or poorly done versions of better material. Just because scat porn films are movies, it doesn't mean all movies are scat porn films. I sincerely hope the professionals realize this. Art and artists should probably be taken on a case by case basis.

Anonymous · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 767

Just because scat porn films are movies, it doesn't mean all movies are scat porn films. I sincerely hope the professionals realize this. Art and artists should probably be taken on a case by case basis.

Thank you Fins, I agree with the last part of what you said completely. Just because there are a few insanly gross subjects drawn by some furry artists doesn't mean that the entire fandom should be subject to uninformed bigotry. It'd be like a group of soccer moms protesting that Hollywood stop making movies because little Johnny found "Scat Bath 29" (made up title by the way.. ....at least I for god damned hope it is >.<).

It bugs me that the label "Furry" has become synominous (sp?) with things like beastiality and plushophilia just because a few bits of scum on the heel of the fandom screamed out loud. Rather like how Trekkies and Star Wars fans got a bad name. When you see videos of 'cons..what do you see? Do you see the freaks and geeks? Or do you see the slick-dressed businessman type that's trying to haggle on a movie prop or autograph to add to their private collection? I, personally, haven't seen too many suits in the footage. It's all about sensationalism. What'll get a stronger reaction? A bread and butter furry artist, or some fat crusted-zit-covered sheep-molesting guy that smells and looks like he just took a roll in his own feces that draws stuff that'd make him look like fertility god next to what's in his sketch book?

Yeah huh. Case-by-case basis.. If it were only that simple. Sadly it isn't, too many people are hung up that furry equates to the likes of Doug Winger, while artists like Pseudo-Manitou are ignored.

Yes, there is a great deal of sick art in the furry fandom, there's no denying it. And just because "If you don't like it, don't look" is said, it doesn't mean it'll go away. It's like a trainwreck.. Don't want to look, but can't look away.

But always gotta remember. It's not "furries" drawwing all that sick shit. It's humans drawwing/doing what they want.

If it's out there, someone's probably already drawn porn of it, or tried using it as a sex toy. Or both. Rather like the philosphy on violence and torture I've got.. "If it can be thought about, someone else has probably already done it..even the flaming toothpicks in the tear ducts and pipe-cleaner in the urethra's probably already been done."

Pycnopodia · Coadjutor Joined: 31 Dec 2003 Posts: 72

Ehmm, I am a furry?
I have read quite alot on furry.com and some alt.fan.furry faq stuff but I still dont know if I am a furry or exactly what furry is. I dont even know if the art I draw is furry or anthro. How can I find out?

Anonymous · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 767

Anthropomorphics does have a less professional reputation now than it did in the 80s, for sure. But it would take a REALLY damnably big world-smashing-hermaphroditic-scat-smeared-lensflared-gryphonwolftaur for use of anthro-animals to become totally scorned in the professional world. It'd have to manage to taint everything from Usagi Yojimbo to Starfox to Maus to children's books. A lot of people know the big difference between outright furry art (furry in the sense of -today's- fandom: bad art, little imagination, no backgrounds, no skill) and simple anthropomorphics, enough to say that things aren't hopeless, just more complicated.

The problem is, your definition of "furry" and "Anthromorphics" is wholly arbitrary and subjective.
I mean, Not even a "furry" can tell you exactly what furry art is. You’re trying to define it by omission, "little imagination, no backgrounds, no skill" (i.e it lacks imagination, backgrounds and skill) but that method of definition is far too vague and general to be of any use at all.

However ignoring that, using that same logic, since photography is (presumably) used for shooting really depraved and awful pornographic pictures that DEFY THE VERY HEAVENS WITH THEIR EVIL, photography is therefore tainted and "less professional" than it used to be.

And yet... Tis’ not so.
I mean, if I saw someone who stopped wearing say… a watch, because they saw someone they didn’t like wearing a watch that was similar, I'd suggest that they were being a bit oversensitive.

Of course, Given that Traditionally Ego plays a very large part in art (for the artist and perhaps in the commisioning of art as well perhaps), I’m not really surprised that artists themselves are always ready to kick up a hoo haa about... well, almost anything related to art.

I mean, I'm sure people would just ignore the bad artwork, If it weren't for all the people pointing at it and screaming "I'm not like this! I can do better! This is so crap" et al.

Sulaco · Rasophore Joined: 28 Oct 2003 Posts: 61

Ah, I wasn't saying it's furry because it's bad art (though plenty other folks will say so). It's bad art (MOST of the time) because it's made by furries. The majority of fandom are only repeating techniques, styles, and ideas that've been done a million times, to put it lightly. It's the same in anime too.

But to try and define the difference between furry and anthropomorphism, I go back to saying that furry art is made with its primary on the anthropomorphization of the portrayed characters(s), making that the core interest. Anthropomorphics like Maus or something use it to tell a larger story. But yes, I realize it is rather subjective and there can be and are grey areas, but it's the closest definition I've found.

m_estrugo · Coadjutor Joined: 13 Nov 2003 Posts: 160

You don't want one of my sociological/group dynamics speeches about this thing. :)

Rankin · Coadjutor Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 488

You don't want one of my sociological/group dynamics speeches about this thing. :)

Aww, but you're so sweet - we all love you, Miguel!

There are so many odd (anti)social aspects to the fandom, it's just frightful and so self-destructing. You've got the teeny kids who like drawing funny animals whist not PLURing at a rave, thse with such odd perversions that they try to hide it by lasking it in fur (or perhaps latex), the feneral perverts, bleh... etc, etc, etc..

(Long time since I've seen you on FM. I'm sure that Ollie says 'Hi'!)

Wayd Wolf · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Oct 2003 Posts: 456

Anthropomorphics: loosely, a genre concerning application of human traits to non-human entities. Care Bears to Brave Toaster to Scooby Doo to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and much else. Used as a device in science-fiction, anime, drama, horror, myth, animation, and anime among other areas.

Furry: loosely, a once fun fandom centered on anthropomorphics with a lot of goofy trippy people given to eccentricities but largely harmless and open minded with a tendency to be very open and welcoming. Now, the open-mindedness has been confused with brainlessness and the open welcoming has been extended to people who would rank as less worthwhile than NAMBLA by the ACLU easily.

It's kind of odd to watch furry welcome and excuse and redefine as acceptable behaviours which the SCA, anime, Trek, sci-fi, and other subcultures never would to the extent that furry does.

It's painful to watch people who COULD be such wonderfully successful people in their own lives throw them away and fuck up the lives of so many others.

It's excrutiating to watch people who ARE doing reasonably well in their own lives help the prior group keep destroying themselves and dragging all and sundry down with them.

It's amusing to watch the whole stew simmer. At best. In a train wreck watching sort of way.

Sulaco · Rasophore Joined: 28 Oct 2003 Posts: 61

Speaking of the Brave Little Toaster, has anyone here managed to come across any porn of that?

Anonymous · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 767

Speaking of the Brave Little Toaster, has anyone here managed to come across any porn of that?

All I had to do was type in “the brave little toaster +porn” at google.

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/3336281/

Mitch · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 290

Speaking of the Brave Little Toaster, has anyone here managed to come across any porn of that?

Well, there's a Doug Winger pic featuring a toaster.... http://vcl.ctrl-c.liu.se/vcl/Artists/Doug-Winger/youdecide.gif

Shmorky · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Nov 2003 Posts: 182

Speaking of the Brave Little Toaster, has anyone here managed to come across any porn of that?

Well, there's a Doug Winger pic featuring a toaster.... http://vcl.ctrl-c.liu.se/vcl/Artists/Doug-Winger/youdecide.gif

I remember that one. The first time I saw it I thought "I'll take the toaster."

MagKnightX · Coadjutor Joined: 04 Dec 2003 Posts: 137

There is nothing sacred anymore...

Rap · Recusant Joined: 06 Jan 2004 Posts: 1

Personally, I do not like the extream of either side, but they exist, so that's that.

Charisma · Coadjutor Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 158

oh my god theres even a story to go with that toaster porn pic at DA!
I bet theres probably nothing left that an artist hasnt made porn out of!
what it the most UNLIKELY thing you can imagine there being porn of? i bet its out there somewhere.

Anonymous · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 767

Sulaco, Ole Sparky here, again, and if Mitch and Comptolio would be so kind to be patient with me while I bring forth examples. I have a delightful hard bound copy of a very early Terry Brooks "Sword of Shannara with illustrations by the Brothers Hildebrandt. I gave one of my niece's a beautiful, illustrated "Wizard of Oz", something I hoped she would hold on to and pass on to her kids. I remember Tom Swift III, Rick Brant, and the Hardy Boys books when I was growing up, when the skills of the graphic artist and the writer merged and complemented. Also, Andre Norton's Voorloper, and a Poul Anderson story set in the Ireland of about 500 AD.
I appreciate deeply what may come of a fusion of talents. I have seen so much good come of it.
And I remember a thread in, gag, A.F.F, when it was suggested and the response was, well, we have comic books.
Don't, don't even think of suggesting I review "Furry" comic books. Please, please, please don't.
It has already been discussed, and disgust, elsewhere.
To be fair, and as an example, lets compare Havoc Inc. with something else.
Okay, I chose "Space Wolf" and hope the gent who does it will forgive me. I have both comics and can do a side by side.
Line art, both of them for openers.
Havoc Inc., and Space Wolf both have good foreground, main charactor drawings.
Okay, that said, Havoc starts to appear in the rear view mirror.
Havoc, weak background art, sometimes distorted.
Space Wolf, background and foreground art flow together, as it should, placing the main charactors firmly in a world in the reader's mind. The main charactors are part of a world instead of the world being some awkward, gawky background.
And I sincerely hope Dan Flahive will forgive me for mentioning him here.
After about ish four of Havoc, I was gagging, I could not handle it. Not Chester, not Deck, not their weird world where Chester could do anything and there were not System Defense Command fighter craft hovering above their freighter to prevent lift, and Chester being dragged off in irons.
After the last ish of Space Wolf, I was hoping for more, I really was.
Havoc Inc, and Space Wolf, worlds apart and I honestly miss Space Wolf. I won't even go into my opinion of either the writing or science of Havoc. But then, silly me, I am subscribed to the Kennedy Space Center mailing list, grab every factual book I can about physics and space flight and keep looking at the stars and dreaming.
Anyway, of more anon, thanks to "Furry", and my experiences with them, and their actions and public statements, I have developed a really severe, almost violent cringe factor.
Which, I am ashamed to say, reflects and has effects outside of "Furry". I am ashamed to admit that the "Furry" experience has come to poison my whole view of anthropomorphics. Which, I admit, is a "Bad Thing", and a real shame. It has caused real damage. I would like, somehow to begin to trust again. As a writer, I have a thousand dreams, not pinups, not mucha, but beings, people, going about their lives that I would love to see brought to life by the skilled hands of an illustrator.
But "Furry" and it's supporters have done far too good a job of committing all the worst examples of professional customer and business relation screw ups I can imagine, to the point where I flat out will not do business with "Furry"
And i suggest that if you have a problem with that, then the appropriate people to bring the issue up with is Furry.
Ole Sparky