Crush...Yiff...Destroy!

ZenZhu · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 475

Okay.. I'm not severely busting on people with talent choosing to focus on furry. But, I do have to say that those that work almost entirely, if not exclusively, in furry strike me as a bit of a waste.

What prompted me to think about this was:

http://www.ghostcircles.com/soobee/ragged/art.html

Undeniably, this person is talented. She has a good sense of layout on the page, and her media skill is definitely admirable. But.. a wolf merman? A Fabio-esque wolf knight enjoying a moment out of the ol' armor? The parakeet/leopard griffin could be interpreted as something very imaginative.. like the cover of a Mercedes Lackey novel.. if the cheetah morph rider didn't tug it back down into the mire of furry art.

When I see this stuff these days, I can't help but think, "Hey, this person's got talent. It's too bad they chose to fixate on art that would only be fitting on a Trapper notebook next to the Lisa Frank pencil boxes or airbrushed on a T-shirt at a souvenier shop by the beach."

Charisma · Coadjutor Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 158

who's to say that ALL her art in real life is entirely furry? as a freelance illustrator i doubt she'd get much work if she only insisted on drawing anthros.
I'm thinking of just having a furry site but i have to draw loads of other things too.

ZenZhu · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 475

It's entirely possible she has a separate site showcasing her other work. I just went with the context that was provided in the site's gallery. If someone was going to use one website to showcase their work as part of an employment-seeking sales pitch, I'd think it'd be a bad idea to showcase exclusively furry stuff. I've seen a lot of furries in my day that are perfectly competent artists outside of anthros moan about how they can't get much work.... then you look at their website that they show to potential employers and it's nothing but furries.

Of course, there's nothing to say this is a site she did as part of a portfolio. It just put me in mind of those furries that do use a website like hers as a primary showcase for their work. The lack of a broader scope just makes you think "Good talent... but it all looks like a Trapper Keeper" when thinking about what a potential employer might think. At least it's not like some I've seen, where you get the worst furry spooge ever, then there's a link TO THEIR RESUME. :shock:

It's like something a professional comic artist said to would-be comic artists. He advised them to draw anything and everything for their portfolio. He said anyone could competently draw Batman or Wolverine striking a pose on a gargoyle against a moonlit sky. Those were a dime a dozen. He said what would really get his attention was Batman playing poker in a sombrero.... or something to that effect.

Obviously the girl is a competent artist.. but if that website was all the context I was given in considering her for a job, I know I wouldn't hire her until I at least saw if she had a broader scope of ability and subject matter. But, then, not all potential employers would be recovered furries.

viron · Apocrisiary Joined: 04 Mar 2004 Posts: 49

There are lots of furry artists out there that are extremely talented but ONLY do furry art, and I understand that is what you mean. I feel sorry for people like that. It's like they are throwing away their talent. Furry art won't amount to anything but they are putting all their energy into this lifestyle and fandom and it wil be unnoticed.

I'm sure there are furry artists who are good that branch out into real illustration and etc work and make their livings as artists, but I haven't really met any.

M0us3_Zero · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 209

Yeah, it's sort of sad when an artist of talent goes Monofurry.

It's sort of like when a fanartist of the anime ilk starts sliding into doing fanart only. They don't come up with their own stuff.

Same for when a Fur artist gets lost with blinders on. No wonder there's a high burn-out rate for fur artists.

Why you think I stay on the outside looking in? I draw, but I don't have the talent.

So, I don't front, and I stay out of the pool.

Pycnopodia · Coadjutor Joined: 31 Dec 2003 Posts: 72

viron, I agree.
I like to draw various stuff, but I mostly do furry art because its more fun and thats what Im good at drawing. Id rather do a half-assed furry-drawing then a completely assed non-furry drawing :P

ZenZhu · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 475

Well, furry focus for fun is one thing. Obviously, for fun, a person's gonna do what they like. Commercially, though, not only does furry seem to be a stigma to those vaguely acquainted with it, but if you're going to present a portfolio that's nothing but furry stuff to try and get a job with a company that does advertising artwork for, say, Ford, Mitsubishi, Pepsi, Taco Bell, and Tide..... I would think that's basically job-hunting seppuku. It might land you a gig with Dragon Magazine, though.

Wayd Wolf · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Oct 2003 Posts: 456

Well, furry focus for fun is one thing. Obviously, for fun, a person's gonna do what they like. Commercially, though, not only does furry seem to be a stigma to those vaguely acquainted with it, but if you're going to present a portfolio that's nothing but furry stuff to try and get a job with a company that does advertising artwork for, say, Ford, Mitsubishi, Pepsi, Taco Bell, and Tide..... I would think that's basically job-hunting seppuku. It might land you a gig with Dragon Magazine, though.

If that's true, then Dragon Magazine has truly entered a new pit of Hell undreamt of by Dante. Used to be that they aspired to land Frazetta and Vallejo level stuff. My how the mighty have fallen thanks to those dipshits from WotC. How I miss Gygax.

Anonymous · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 767

This reminds me of Christopher Marlowe's "The Tragical History of Dr. Faustus":

Cut is the branch that might have grown full straight,
And burned is Apollo's laurel-bough,
That sometime grew within this learned man.
Faustus is gone: regard his hellish fall,
Whose fiendful fortune may exhort the wise,
Only to wonder at unlawful things,
Whose deepness doth entice such forward wits
To practise more than heavenly power permits.

Sulaco · Rasophore Joined: 28 Oct 2003 Posts: 61

Actually, I happen to know this person. She knows what she's doing, and by no means at all specializes in one genre, nor makes furry her focus. She just happens to draw the stuff. I think her main site is at ghostcircles.com, which shows her more professionally-geared stuff. In any case, she just uses Ragged as her little sub-gallery thing where she can put her pinup-y furry stuff seperate from her regular illustrative work (which I highly recommend checking out).

And yeah, making furry your portfolio focus is a quick way to unemployment, unless you plan on living an art life of mediocrity by cashing in soley on furry fandom.

mouse · Coadjutor Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 662

Even though you said not to bash on people who focus on furry

I think you need to consider also

Why are these people doing the art in the first place?
If you want to be a professional artist, the reason you have to show range is because you have to design what other people want you to whether you like it or not. You have to be able to interperate someones else's ideas accurately (or at least in a way they like). If someone can only draw furry stuff the reason they wont get much work is because that isnt needed that often. If you wanna do character design you are probably going to have to go into animation. And it doesnt seem all that fun to me - those guys take a lot of shit, between thier jobs being sent overseas and unsteady work (layoffs)..I don't see why people consider it a dream job. Im sure it pays well for some, but it's got to be tedious boring work.

All these people who wanna to do art as a career painting or drawing only what they want, you have to be so good you get known for what you do otherwise forget it. Im not in any of this industry at all, so Im only going by common sense here and what I see out there.

I think furry and anime fandom would best function as indy scenes (furry fandom in particular is losing this...which to me is is the most illogical thing about the whole fandom). When I first came across furry fandom, that why I thought it was going to be cool. It seemed like where there was a lot of underground or upcoming cartoonists, obscure magazines, etc revolving around funny animals (it is still somewhat depending on where you look, but not so much anymore it seems..but whatever).

As far as to what people are drawing, Yeah, I hate Lisa Frank stuff, Its REALLY not my thing - but neither I nor anyone else is really in any position to tell someone that they should be doing other stuff, if their focus on one thing...so what?

If I was an artist I would draw nothing but funny animals, hot rods , and tattoo'd pin up girls (lowbrow/kulture)...and fuck what everyone or anyone else might think. Mainly because I would be doing it because its what I would want to be doing and its what I like ... HOBBY - NOT A CAREER. People who are really good make money in these scenes, but they usually have other jobs.

the mechanics behind all of this stuff is exactly the same. Most groups or scenes of any kind function in exactly the same way, furry fandom is really no different. You either like filling a niche, a genre, or you dont. I fail to see the arguement here.

M0us3_Zero · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 209

I happen to agree with that sentiment.

But, I'm sort of forced to keep it "as a hobby", because I still need to grow some skills.

Unfortuantely life has been pissing in my corn flakes, and I've had no real time to focus on actually being able to draw with any quality.

I may bat it out of the ball park once in a great while, but it's a rare thing when I do.

So, I have to agree, keep it a hobby, unless your skills are freaking wicked, then start your own effing comic.

Even then, you'll still need to have a side job to keep the food coming in.

Lafarga · Recusant Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 14

It's entirely possible she has a separate site showcasing her other work.

That would be her main site, "Headache Powder". It's listed in her links page.

Gene Ternruh · Recusant Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 18

Wow, that is a nice site design, and a horrible thumbnail system.

Anonymous · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 767

just uses Ragged as her little sub-gallery thing where she can put her pinup-y furry stuff seperate from her regular illustrative work

Looking that her other work, indeed, all her work, It’s Bland.

Most of these people are (or rather, their work is). Technically skilled, but so bland and unexciting, uninteresting and conventional in style and excution that a lifelong diet of nothing but boiled rice would seem a Rollacoaster ride by comparison.

Still, perhaps it's the market which demands that, or maybe the peer pressure.

ZenZhu · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 475

Well, looking at her non-furry site, we moved from Trapper notebooks to off-brand game guides and more Dragon-magazineesque stuff. I guess the issue of market demand would depend on what kind of market you're gearing toward. Obviously, she likes her fantasy art. She's definitely skilled... I won't knock her talent or her personal aspirations. Still, it serves to illustrate my original point, just taken a step beyond furrydom to fantasy. Most of the folks that have achieved success as fantasy artists are also accomplished as commercial non-fantasy artists. Boris Vallejo has done quite a bit of ad work not related to fantasy art. I dunno how many folks know it, but he did the movie poster for National Lampoons European Vacation.

Again, it depends on what your aspirations are. Her stuff is really nice. She'd be wonderful as an illustrator for children's books or the aforementioned Dragon Magazine. She has that kind of soft, romantic fantasy quality to her art. But, were I reviewing potential artists for an ad campaign, I doubt I'd consider her for a Duracell spread or a Yoplait ad.

But then, I can't assume she'd want to do work for either of those.

As for hobby versus career... I started as an art major. I had a great 2D artist my first year who encouraged my eye for detail and composition. One of my greatest paintings to date is one of a Duracell battery. I think he saw the commercial artist in me. But, most of my other teachers were fine artists.... as I describe it... the kind that think you're a sell-out if your artwork makes money before you die. I had some Burne Hogarth-esque practice sketches on the cover of a folder once. He asked what they were, and I commented that I was just trying to do more mechanical-type drawings of the human figure, rather than really freestyle stuff. He actually said, "Well, it's stupid." That very moment, I knew I was better off keeping art as a hobby, and going into something else an an occupation.

Unfortunately, I wasn't too aware about careers that would let me use my art skill in a more commercial venue, like architecture, interior design, or landscaping.

Charisma · Coadjutor Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 158

I was brought up being taught fine art all my life until now, and the whole commersial sense and portfolio work is very over-whelming when you first start a graphic design course...well it was for me. Needless to say I failed to get into the BA graphic design degree course because my portfolio looked more like a sketchbook.

I've always been told that my cartoons were much too juvinile to mix with my college work and it would be a good idea to keep them seperate.

ZenZhu · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 475

I was generally told that a few sketches are good because it shows the creation process behind your finished pieces... but that you mostly wanted finished pieces.

That makes me think of another furry trait...... an archive of 400 images, 390 of which are only half-finished doodles scrawled on notebook paper and cocktail napkins. Yeah.. you gotta draw a lot to refine your skill and practice..... but do we really need to see every pencil mark you ever made?

Charisma · Coadjutor Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 158

Yeah, a small percentage do the opposite, Like Miss Mab. Ive never seen a single sketch from her

DA · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 320

As a Artist myself I have to say, I like drawing anthros, but I also draw anything else that pops into my head, whether it be a building or a landscape.

As more of a sketcher than a finisher, I'd have to say I like sketches, often my sketchwork looks better than the finished article so lots of sketches are what people mostly see from me.

Sulaco · Rasophore Joined: 28 Oct 2003 Posts: 61

That very moment, I knew I was better off keeping art as a hobby, and going into something else an an occupation.

Don't let fine arts morons like that discourage you so easily. 90% of them can't draw worth shit without a photo to copy - oh, I mean REFERENCE - anyways.

Sulaco · Rasophore Joined: 28 Oct 2003 Posts: 61

Even though you said not to bash on people who focus on furry

I think you need to consider also

Why are these people doing the art in the first place?
If you want to be a professional artist, the reason you have to show range is because you have to design what other people want you to whether you like it or not. You have to be able to interperate someones else's ideas accurately (or at least in a way they like). If someone can only draw furry stuff the reason they wont get much work is because that isnt needed that often. If you wanna do character design you are probably going to have to go into animation. And it doesnt seem all that fun to me - those guys take a lot of shit, between thier jobs being sent overseas and unsteady work (layoffs)..I don't see why people consider it a dream job. Im sure it pays well for some, but it's got to be tedious boring work.

Yeah, well, that's the animation industry, which I can't speak much for personal experience aside from the summer session thingy I attended at CalArts a while back. They pretty much told us how hopeless the industry was, and I realized character animation was WAY too easy for me to burn out on. But I digress. You don't necessarily have to be an animator to be involved in an animated film (Tom Kidd, as well as hundreds other names I'm too lazy to type, did concept art for Treasure Planet).

And to do character design you don't necessarily have to be in animation. I know LOTS of people in the industry who don't animate, and have done some form of character design work. It usually ties in with visual development, which covers everything from environmental concepts, vehicle ideas, and most of what you see in those 'The Art of ' books.

Lafarga · Recusant Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 14

I just spent quite a bit of time putting together some examples of Susan's art which I thought would demonstrate how entirely wrong the "stuck in a fantasy rut" assumption is, but then I had a browser crash, and lost the whole post.

So rather that go through all that again, I'll just say this: Susan has a degree in studio art, and neither of these sites are her actual professional portfolio that she shows to prospective employers (which includes page layout, logo design, etc). She draws a lot of fantasy/SF art as a hobby because she enjoys costume and set design, and fantasy/SF provides the best flexibility in that realm. You're judging the entire output of an artist based on a very small selection of images on a pair of websites, one of which is targeted at comic-book and anime fandom, and the other of which is targeted at furries. That's kind of silly.

(Also, "bland" my ass.)

DA · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 320

dude..shoulda picked a better picture, that is bland and has wonky anatomy to boot.

Lafarga · Recusant Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 14

First, there's three pictures linked there.

Second, I don't think she needs to worry about art criticism from somebody who does work like this. Stones, glass houses, etc.

Anonymous · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 767

First, there's three pictures linked there.

Second, I don't think she needs to worry about art criticism from somebody who does work like this. Stones, glass houses, etc.

You've fallen into one of the oldest traps, the idea of "If you can't do better, you're not entitled to criticize".

Just because one person has less technical skill than someone else, it does not preclude him or her from critiquing someone else’s work.

Remember the Tale of Emperors new clothes?

I cannot write plays like Shakespeare, but I can still write essays about what he wrote.

As for the pictures you posted links unto

I think one the problem is the digital media itself has been used, It’s just so smooth and regular, It makes it a little lifeless, since as we all know, biological life itself and the world around us is not or is rarely "perfect".

But firstly, we have some people leaning against at wall; the anatomy looks slightly off to me, the bloke looks rather stiff and unnatural. The over preponderance of that yellow makes it looked washed out.

In the second picture, the newspaper looks like it’s about to slip out of it’s grip and the lack of detail on it compared to the bloke is just lazy. The bloke himself looks like some generic yuppy fantasy, nothing interesting or meaningful about him at all, again, the white background is bland and adds nothing to it, takes away even.

The Last, Well, This one is slightly better than the others, though again, The man looks like some kind of Aryan. It's interesting, hanging people from an electricity pylon is it?

In the end you see, Illustration is illustration and that’s fine and all that for it’s purposes, but trying to masquerade it as fine art is just naughty.

Anonymous · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 767

That very moment, I knew I was better off keeping art as a hobby, and going into something else an an occupation.

Don't let fine arts morons like that discourage you so easily. 90% of them can't draw worth shit without a photo to copy - oh, I mean REFERENCE - anyways.

That’s exactly the same kind of pernicious snobbery, only in reverse.

I am thinking of two bald men fighting over a comb.

DA · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 320

First, there's three pictures linked there.

Second, I don't think she needs to worry about art criticism from somebody who does work like this. Stones, glass houses, etc.

Excuse me..sorry I just need to stop laughing here...you're comparing my OLD sketch pad work to her fully finished pieces? and if you actually knew anything about art you'd see that I actually have better anatomy than her, and the pieces are bland, their pinups at best, they have no interaction in them.

As for the rest, you should see the wall sized pieces I do.

:roll:

Oh yes and at least I know how to proportion stuff so my characters don't have one leg longer than the other or their hands don't reach their knees....nice coloring can only cover up so much..

Edit: took a prowl around sketches, most of her better work is in there, I dunno how anyone can do a really nice sketch but only finish the stiff work then again some of her sketches are just as stiff.

Lafarga · Recusant Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 14

You've fallen into one of the oldest traps, the idea of "If you can't do better, you're not entitled to criticize".

Just because one person has less technical skill than someone else, it does not preclude him or her from critiquing someone else’s work.

I think that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Period. If you criticize other people's work, you should be prepared to have your own work examined for those same faults.

I think one the problem is the digital media itself has been used, It’s just so smooth and regular, It makes it a little lifeless, since as we all know, biological life itself and the world around us is not or is rarely "perfect".

And I'm sure that if I had shown you her watercolors or her marker work, you'd complain that they were messy. Right.

But firstly, we have some people leaning against at wall; the anatomy looks slightly off to me, the bloke looks rather stiff and unnatural. The over preponderance of that yellow makes it looked washed out.

The young man is meant to look stiff and uncomfortable; he's leaning on a fence next to a pretty girl. And the full-page color wash is deliberate, as if you couldn't tell. Note the title of the image?

In the second picture, the newspaper looks like it’s about to slip out of it’s grip and the lack of detail on it compared to the bloke is just lazy. The bloke himself looks like some generic yuppy fantasy, nothing interesting or meaningful about him at all, again, the white background is bland and adds nothing to it, takes away even.

You're entitled to your opinon. That particular piece has gotten her a job offer to do some magazine spots, from what I understand.

"Generic yuppy fantasy"? Yes, I'm sure that Yuppies fantasize about Victorian clothing all the time.

The Last, Well, This one is slightly better than the others, though again, The man looks like some kind of Aryan. It's interesting, hanging people from an electricity pylon is it?

It's from a Tarot card content at the Eatpoo.com illustration forums. There's a bunch of underlying symbolism to that particular card.

Do you have some kind of weird problem with white people? Maybe you shouldn't let your political viewpoints color your interpretation of people's artwork.

(He looks like that because Susan was on a Hank Williams III kick at the time, I believe, and the post-apoc theme is because she was re-reading King's Dark Tower books, I think. Just in case you were wondering.)

In the end you see, Illustration is illustration and that’s fine and all that for it’s purposes, but trying to masquerade it as fine art is just naughty.

It's not "fine art". I never said it was. It's just illustration, professional and practice. Did you somehow interpret "studio art degree" to mean "this is all Art with a Capital A" or something? If so, that was awfully silly of you.

Anyway, you can keep sniping, if you want. It's always amusing.

DA · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 320

I think that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Period. If you criticize other people's work, you should be prepared to have your own work examined for those same faults.

Dude you didn't examine my old work for those faults, your comment came off as snobbish and the tone was sorta how someone would regard a dead rat. You haven't got a clue about critique have you?

oh well..guess I'd better go put up some real work rather than my wonky old stuff.

Lafarga · Recusant Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 14

Excuse me..sorry I just need to stop laughing here...you're comparing my OLD sketch pad work to her fully finished pieces?

Old? That top-level piece is dated 3-17-04.

and if you actually knew anything about art you'd see that I actually have better anatomy than her

*SNERK*

You're telling me that the anatomy in piece like this, with that... "hand", or this, with its... general perspective issues, have better anatomy than this? (And Susan says that she's not happy with that one, either.)

You, ma'am, are either full of yourself, or for some reason you choose to share incredibly shitty pictures when you have far, far better pieces available. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, however, and assume that you for some reason choose to put really crappy pics (dated very recently) on your DeviantArt site.

As for the rest, you should see the wall sized pieces I do.

Then why haven't you shared any of them? Convenient, that.

Oh yes and at least I know how to proportion stuff so my characters don't have one leg longer than the other or their hands don't reach their knees....nice coloring can only cover up so much..

I'm assuming you're talking about the first picture (since it's the only one where somebody's got two visible legs), and I fail to see the problem you're talking about. The perspective is a little too sharp, possibly, but the legs are all the correct length, and you know what? When I stand up, my hands don't reach my knees, so I have no idea what the hell you're talking about there.

But by all means, keep sniping. It would help your case if you could provide some better work, since (as you claim) the pieces on your DeviantArt site are not representative of your actual skill.

Sulaco · Rasophore Joined: 28 Oct 2003 Posts: 61

In the end you see, Illustration is illustration and that’s fine and all that for it’s purposes, but trying to masquerade it as fine art is just naughty.

DA · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 320

Old? That top-level piece is dated 3-17-04.

That top piece was a 2am sketch, I'm in the middle of revamping my portfolio, DA is just my showcase for doodles and the like. I'm amazed you went digging around just to find my doodles.

You're telling me that the anatomy in piece like this, with that... "hand", or this, with its... general perspective issues, have better anatomy than this? (And Susan says that she's not happy with that one, either.)

Can't see the image you direct linked, but can I just say, Hand? it's half buried in the heads hair, plus the figure isn't even intended to be human, and the second isn't up to date, the still not finished sketch of the lizard is pinned to my wall awaiting it's background fixing, I was only playing with an idea. I notice you've avoided my more finished pieces like the plague.

You, ma'am, are either full of yourself, or for some reason you choose to share incredibly shitty pictures when you have far, far better pieces available. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, however, and assume that you for some reason choose to put really crappy pics (dated very recently) on your DeviantArt site.

Oh yes, you really know how to critique...such flowing abjectives. And you're complaining about my saying someones work is bland with anatomy errors. Have you heard of irony?

Then why haven't you shared any of them? Convenient, that.

Mostly because I have no photo's of them, most are too big to scan and my most recent ones were destroyed. I'm more of an installation artist.

I'm assuming you're talking about the first picture (since it's the only one where somebody's got two visible legs), and I fail to see the problem you're talking about. The perspective is a little too sharp, possibly, but the legs are all the correct length, and you know what? When I stand up, my hands don't reach my knees, so I have no idea what the hell you're talking about there.

Actually the calf of the far leg is slightly longer than the near one, I'm rather sensative to proportion so it stands out a mile to me. On the horse guy one you linked the arm if uncurled and hung by his side would mean the hands would reach down below the median point of positioning on the legs, his elbow is nearly reaching his hip.

But by all means, keep sniping. It would help your case if you could provide some better work, since (as you claim) the pieces on your DeviantArt site are not representative of your actual skill.

I have nothing to prove, I know I'm capable of better, besides I'm not going to muck around trying to piece together huge scans right now just to please you.

Edit: oh yes and before you talk about my hands on a non-realistic piece make sure you're not trying to insult me for something your 'friend' does worse.

http://www.ghostcircles.com/soobee/images/chicken.jpg

What is up with that hand? looks boneless.

Shadow Megami · Recusant Joined: 25 Mar 2004 Posts: 1

Old? That top-level piece is dated 3-17-04.

Which is most probably the date it was uploaded to DeviantArt.. NOT the date it was drawn. Sure some pieces have recent dates on them. They are more than likely the days they were scanned and put through and art program to add her name to the pieces. I usually do the same when I can't remember the actual date I drew a piece.
I have uploaded old pieces to deviantart.. just because it says the date on it is this year that doesn't mean it was drawn this year.

You, ma'am, are either full of yourself, or for some reason you choose to share incredibly shitty pictures when you have far, far better pieces available. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, however, and assume that you for some reason choose to put really crappy pics (dated very recently) on your DeviantArt site.

Read above.. -_-
And there is NO need to be this nasty... if you gave out general well thought out critique maybe DA wouldn't be so defensive.
There is no need for it.
And I noticed you only pointed out 3 pieces. What of the other pieces in her gallery? What of them? And I believe +Dancing on Blood+ is a fantasy piece. There was no mention of the character in the image being human.
And before I get shredded by people saying Anatomy is important even in Fantasy. I know.

And As someone has said before. You don't have to be able to draw or paint well to spot anatomy flaws. What if the person giving the critique was a doctor/human biology major? Would you dismiss their critique because they can't draw? I looked over the gallery of the artist in question and there were several that just jumped out at me. The overall pictures were good and I liked quite a few. It's just these anatomy flaws just stood out.

I know I'm not the best artist in the world. I don't attempt to claim to be either.
If it was me. I would gladly accept any polite and well thought out critique even from someone that can only draw stick figures but they know their anatomy.

As for the rest, you should see the wall sized pieces I do.

Then why haven't you shared any of them? Convenient, that.

So your assuming everybody has access to a camera 24/7 so they can take photo's of their work?
Not likely Not everybody has the rescources and money to get access to this stuff.

Anyway. I won't get drawn into a sniping match when I've only just joined even though I have been lurking for a while.

Good Day.

Anonymous · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 767

In the end you see, Illustration is illustration and that’s fine and all that for it’s purposes, but trying to masquerade it as fine art is just naughty.

Anonymous · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 767

I think that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Period. If you criticize other people's work, you should be prepared to have your own work examined for those same faults.

You've fallen into one of the oldest traps, the idea of "If you can't do better, you're not entitled to criticize".

Just because one person has less technical skill than someone else, it does not preclude him or her from critiquing someone else’s work.

And I'm sure that if I had shown you her watercolours or her marker work, you'd complain that they were messy. Right.

*Raises eyebrow*

You... "Presume" do you?

You would put YOUR words into MY mouth eh?

Well, I'm glad to say that *I* make no presumptions or assumptions about anyone or anything at any point in time ever.

The young man is meant to look stiff and uncomfortable; he's leaning on a fence next to a pretty girl. And the full-page colour wash is deliberate, as if you couldn't tell. Note the title of the image?

Riiiiiight. Nice way to wiggle and dodge there. The fundamental fact that the anatomy is too stiff and the colour is washed out and has taken all the animus, The LIFE, From the image thusly.

You're entitled to your opinion. That particular piece has gotten her a job offer to do some magazine spots, from what I understand.

You’re such an appeaser.
IT’S PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO LET HITLER ANNEX THE SUDETENLAND!

"Generic yuppy fantasy"? Yes, I'm sure that Yuppies fantasize about Victorian clothing all the time.

I can’t remember ever seeing any portraits, photos, drawings, whatever where Victorian men have hair like that, or glasses like that for that matter.

I'm not sure about the tie either. Or the Cup, and why is there a photo in the newspaper if it's meant to be Victorian?

Photos were not appearing in Victorian papers much then (or at all), you see.

It's from a Tarot card content at the Eatpoo.com illustration forums. There's a bunch of underlying symbolism to that particular card.

I have nothing but contempt for the backward superstitions of yesterday. like tarot cards.

Lenin knew what to do with em! he made them into grain stores.

Also, The name sounds like some kind of hideous Pr0n site. I’ll not go there thank you very much.

SOME OF US HAVE DIGNITY!

Do you have some kind of weird problem with white people? Maybe you shouldn't let your political viewpoints color your interpretation of people's artwork.

Remember what I said about biological imperfection?

(He looks like that because Susan was on a Hank Williams III kick at the

AHA! on first name terms eh?

THAT'S THE SURE SIGN OF A SHILL!!!

I bet she paid you to come here and spread propaganda and lies.

It's not "fine art". I never said it was.

You implied it.

practice

Lots more is needed.

Lafarga · Recusant Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 14

That top piece was a 2am sketch, I'm in the middle of revamping my portfolio, DA is just my showcase for doodles and the like. I'm amazed you went digging around just to find my doodles.

I followed the "WWW" link at the bottom of your post and *DING* there it was. Not difficult.

You sure seem to be concerned about somebody stealing your doodles, though. Damn, those are some serious copyright notices.

Can't see the image you direct linked, but can I just say, Hand? it's half buried in the heads hair, plus the figure isn't even intended to be human, and the second isn't up to date, the still not finished sketch of the lizard is pinned to my wall awaiting it's background fixing, I was only playing with an idea. I notice you've avoided my more finished pieces like the plague.

These were the most recently-dated pieces. You were complaining about me looking at "old" pieces, after all. I didn't feel the need to go "digging".

Oh yes, you really know how to critique...such flowing abjectives. And you're complaining about my saying someones work is bland with anatomy errors. Have you heard of irony?

Er, what? I'm not complaing about your choice of adjectives. I'm complaining that your criticism is without merit and the work you have available is... of poor quality.

Mostly because I have no photo's of them, most are too big to scan and my most recent ones were destroyed. I'm more of an installation artist.

Convenient.

Actually the calf of the far leg is slightly longer than the near one, I'm rather sensative to proportion so it stands out a mile to me.

So can I assume you never make even a tiny two-milimeter error in any of your drawings, and when you do, you immediately go back and redo the entire thing, even when you discover it after you've inked and colored the entire piece?

No? Then I guess you suck at the anatomy just like Susan does, then.

Christ. "Slightly longer". Oh god, call out the fucking Art Police, we have a slip of the pen to report.

On the horse guy one you linked the arm if uncurled and hung by his side would mean the hands would reach down below the median point of positioning on the legs, his elbow is nearly reaching his hip.

Really, I can't see the problem. Maybe you don't realize that his pants are slung very low on his hips, as cowboys tend to do? Would you like me to take Photoshop and make you an image of his arm unfolded so you can see exactly how it would look if it was extended?

Actually, since I'm bored as fuck this morning, I went ahead and did so:

Oh, look. His arm reaches so his wrist is just under his buttocks. Wow. Fancy that.

I have nothing to prove, I know I'm capable of better, besides I'm not going to muck around trying to piece together huge scans right now just to please you.

Suit yourself.

Must be nice, having these big "installations" that you can tell people about but are too big to fit into scanners. I have a really pretty girlfriend, but she lives on an island where they don't have any cameras or telephones, you see.

Edit: oh yes and before you talk about my hands on a non-realistic piece make sure you're not trying to insult me for something your 'friend' does worse.

http://www.ghostcircles.com/soobee/images/chicken.jpg

What is up with that hand? looks boneless.

Looks like my hand. Mine aren't very muscled and are pretty smooth-skinned. Again, I don't see the problem.

I also notice you didn't criticize the hand in the guy-sitting-at-the-table-with-the-newspaper picture, or the dancer picture, or any other pictures... I guess Susan does know how to do hands, and does them pretty damn well, in fact.

Lafarga · Recusant Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 14

words words words

what

Anonymous · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 767

words words words

what

I dunno. Apart from the fact that you're a shill, sent here by the artist to protect their fragile reputation.

why don't you confess that they sent you here?

It would just make it easier all round.

Confess!

Lafarga · Recusant Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 14

I dunno. Apart from the fact that you're a shill, sent here by the artist to protect their fragile reputation.

why don't you confess that they sent you here?

It would just make it easier all round.

Confess!

Nah, she has no idea I'm here. She doesn't know about this thread, or even about CYD at all. She probably would be upset at me for flaming DA, since she's nicer than I am. She might even be upset that I'm "defending" her at all, since she has basically no artistic ego to speak of; I probably think more highly of her art than she does. I am acting entirely of my own volition.

Also:

ZenZhu · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 475

Don't let fine arts morons like that discourage you so easily. 90% of them can't draw worth shit without a photo to copy - oh, I mean REFERENCE - anyways.

Well, I had known for a while I didn't fit in with the general art crowd. It was also a consideration in terms of career potential and such. I was a little more interested in something with the opportunity for career development and making decent money than what your average art career seemed to promise.

I don't regret the decision. My chosen career, geology, is enjoyable, though I think I might have gone more toward landscaping or something, as I mentioned above, had HGTV been around when I was in college. But, I definitely prefer it over an art career. I think I would have burned out fast in art.

Lafarga wrote:

You're judging the entire output of an artist based on a very small selection of images on a pair of websites, one of which is targeted at comic-book and anime fandom, and the other of which is targeted at furries. That's kind of silly.

Actually, I'm just using her stuff as an example of the concept I was getting at, since seeing the furry site sparked the concept of those furries that do try to do commercial work using only furry art. I put modifiers in my posts to assert that I couldn't fully know her scope or even her professional aspirations. I made statements that I was working within the context of the pages I have seen.

So, I'm not judging the entire output of her work based on the two sites I've seen. I am discussing an opinion on the phenomenon of those artists that do focus solely on furry/fantasy art and wind up dooming their chances at broad-scope employment in professional art positions. Her sites were used as examples of this idea. I did state that, based on what I have seen, I would not hire her for general illustrative work. But, I'm quick to acknowledge that the stuff I've seen is not necessarily a representative of her entire range of ability.

I'm not knocking her, I'm knocking the idea some furries have that they can do nothing but furry work and still make the cut as a professional artist in the general work world. As the site that sparked the idea, she was caught as an innocent bystander. I apologize for even making it seem like I was calling into question the potential of someone you idolize.

In defense of DA's side of this argument, though, it is possible to have an eye for what works artistically without being capable of producing superior art yourself. I know few people respect professional critics of a profession they work in.. art critics, movie critics, etc. But, think as well of the kind of people aspiring professional artists may submit their portfolios to. Many of those potential employers couldn't draw a stick figure themselves... but they know what they're looking for and what works for their purposes. Just because they can't produce the same level of work themselves doesn't mean they can't understand it on an intellectual level and have an opinion.

Let's say I was reviewing this girl's work for a position with an ad company. The position was corporate, and would require the person hired to produce a broad spectrum of art in many different styles. Now, going on what I see of her work and her style..... again..... only from what I have seen so far.... I would not be inclined to hire her. That doesn't mean her art stinks. She has a wonderful "romantic" style. But, as a jack-of-all-trades artist, what little bit I've seen from her furry and anime site, she wouldn't fit the job. Her style wouldn't work for the kind of ads you usually see for Energizer, Audi, Sony, etc. I don't get the sense that I could ask her to do something Andy Warhol-esque using the Ford Exploder or something "edgy" for Mt. Dew. But, then again.. I haven't seen her full range, and can't even guess if she'd be interested in that kind of work.

I would probably want her information for freelance work, though. Commercially speaking, her style would be good for the softer ads you see for more "natural" and comfort-related products, like Whole Foods Market, I Can't Believe it's not Butter, Zoloft, or maxi-pads. It would also do well for children's storybook illustration.

Donotsue · Coadjutor Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 106

Animator Richard Williams' book has this lil wisdom...

He found a formula for drawing comic rabbits:

This formula for drawing comic rabbits paid,

So in the end he could not change the tragic habbits

This formula for drawing comic rabbits made.

-Robert Graves

I Dunno who this Graves is.. but the lesson, kids, is that we must all draw more than furfilth and fetishes to get paid. =)

Anonymous · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 767

she has basically no artistic ego to speak of

THANK YOU FOR PROVEING MY SUPPOSITION!

How much are you being paid ?

Anonymous · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 767

-Robert Graves

I Dunno who this Graves is..

Do you mean the Author?

He Wrote “I, Claudius”, “Claudius the god” and “Count Belasarius” amongst other historical fiction.

“I, Claudius” & “Claudius the god” was dramatised by the BBC in the 1980’s IIRC.

He also wrote “goodbye to all that”, an autobiography about world war one.

He spent some of his life on Majorca.

Er… That all I remember.

Computolio · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 349

Lafarga & DA: Both of you just knock it off, K? I GIVE A SHIT HOW WELL THIS SOOBEE PERSON DRAWS, I REALLY DO. SAME GOES FOR DA IN CASE YOU'RE FEELING LEFT OUT

Lafarga · Recusant Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 14

Lafarga & DA: Both of you just knock it off, K? I GIVE A SHIT HOW WELL THIS SOOBEE PERSON DRAWS, I REALLY DO. SAME GOES FOR DA IN CASE YOU'RE FEELING LEFT OUT

Awww, you're no fun.

(Knocking it off.)

Pycnopodia · Coadjutor Joined: 31 Dec 2003 Posts: 72

As a Artist myself I have to say, I like drawing anthros, but I also draw anything else that pops into my head, whether it be a building or a landscape.

As more of a sketcher than a finisher, I'd have to say I like sketches, often my sketchwork looks better than the finished article so lots of sketches are what people mostly see from me.

Same thing here..
I rarely go anywhere without a small sketchbook and a pen. I draw buildings and cool stuff I see but mostly anthros when I dont see anything 'cool'.
I almost never do 'finished drawings', I get bored before I finish them so I mostly do sketches as well..

IceCat · Coadjutor Joined: 31 Oct 2003 Posts: 81

As a Artist myself I have to say, I like drawing anthros, but I also draw anything else that pops into my head, whether it be a building or a landscape.

As more of a sketcher than a finisher, I'd have to say I like sketches, often my sketchwork looks better than the finished article so lots of sketches are what people mostly see from me.

Same thing here..
I rarely go anywhere without a small sketchbook and a pen. I draw buildings and cool stuff I see but mostly anthros when I dont see anything 'cool'.
I almost never do 'finished drawings', I get bored before I finish them so I mostly do sketches as well..

That the same thing with me, I'l draw anything when I see something interesting, and mostly I sketch, the best I can d is a rather detailed pencel drawing, somtimes I'll finish somthing but all that often, as for anthro art I drawn that in the past, and am just as likely to keep on doing so, mostly as a hobby currently, with the occasional con sketch for people I know.

Later

IceCat

DA · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 320

I followed the "WWW" link at the bottom of your post and *DING* there it was. Not difficult.

Though why you would bother looking at my www link to validate my opinions is beyond me, for all you could have known that might not have even been my page.

You sure seem to be concerned about somebody stealing your doodles, though. Damn, those are some serious copyright notices.

Yeah right, a single line of text along one edge is a major copyright notice, how about I splat it right across the center in font 26 and bright red? what I used is a standard copyright notification used by most artists I know online. You're really proving yourself to know so much.

These were the most recently-dated pieces. You were complaining about me looking at "old" pieces, after all. I didn't feel the need to go "digging".

Yes and as others have said doesn't mean they were drawn when they were posted, if you had actually looked properly as I did at the artists gallery. You would have seen more polished pieces, including several with nigh perfect anatomy. Plus you're comparing my latest images that are intentionally unrealistic with skewed anatomy to images that are meant to be realistic. Can we say no comparision?

Er, what? I'm not complaing about your choice of adjectives. I'm complaining that your criticism is without merit and the work you have available is... of poor quality.

Without merit? well I am complaining about your choice of abjectives, nothing of what I said would have been taken by most artists to be insulting, in fact I'm usually consulted by quite a few people on anatomy because I have a good eye for the little flaws. You choose to label my work shitty which leads me to believe you aren't an artist yourself meaning under your own arguments you probably aren't qualified to critique my work.

Convenient.

No It's just that I'm holding all the good stuff back for my main gallery. plus a lot of what I do in large sizes doesn't last that long seeing as I do murals on walls for christmas and things like that.

So can I assume you never make even a tiny two-milimeter error in any of your drawings, and when you do, you immediately go back and redo the entire thing, even when you discover it after you've inked and colored the entire piece?

No I find the error before I ink, and if it does slip past the ink stage...well straight in the bin. Either that or I scan and correct it in a graphic's programme. I am picky beyond believe about my images anatomy.

No? Then I guess you suck at the anatomy just like Susan does, then.

Now you're putting words in my mouth, I didn't say she sucked, I said she had flaws in the images you choose to use to promote her.

Really, I can't see the problem. Maybe you don't realize that his pants are slung very low on his hips, as cowboys tend to do? Would you like me to take Photoshop and make you an image of his arm unfolded so you can see exactly how it would look if it was extended?

Actually, since I'm bored as fuckthis morning, I went ahead and did so:

Oh, look. His arm reaches so his wrist is just under his buttocks. Wow. Fancy that.

Now I KNOW you're not an artist seeing as you rotated the arm incorrectly, if you had pivoted it properly you would have seen the elbow comes down to 2 millimeters below where you have it putting it level with the top of the hip bone, in humans the elbow when dropped falls in line with the bottom of the ribcage not with the top the hip bone. What on earth do the pants have to do with anything? I was commenting on anatomy UNDER them not on them.

Looks like my hand. Mine aren't very muscled and are pretty smooth-skinned. Again, I don't see the problem.

I said BONES not muscles, where's the end of the Ulna? it casts a light shadow on the wrist in wrists that thin, or do you even know what that is? where's the knuckles? even smooth skin has texture.
The hand has no structure, it's mushy, reminds me of a rubber glove.

You want me to criticise the hands of the guy sitting down? I really can't be bothered seeing as I can't work out if she's deliberately gone to the other extreme over emphasising the bones beneath the skin.

Now I have been extremely patient with you, I have not resorted to swearing or insults as you have, I must say you do your 'friend' a grave disservice by acting this way, I'd personally give anyone who used some of the arguments and abjectives in my 'defense' that you've used in hers a through dressing down. Now I have more important things to do like coding my website, developing my latest photographs and of course working on my final images for my gallery, so I bid you adieu and whatever.

Computolio: duely knocking it off, I just don't feel like being insulted today.

DA · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 320

As a Artist myself I have to say, I like drawing anthros, but I also draw anything else that pops into my head, whether it be a building or a landscape.

As more of a sketcher than a finisher, I'd have to say I like sketches, often my sketchwork looks better than the finished article so lots of sketches are what people mostly see from me.

Same thing here..
I rarely go anywhere without a small sketchbook and a pen. I draw buildings and cool stuff I see but mostly anthros when I dont see anything 'cool'.
I almost never do 'finished drawings', I get bored before I finish them so I mostly do sketches as well..

That the same thing with me, I'l draw anything when I see something interesting, and mostly I sketch, the best I can d is a rather detailed pencel drawing, somtimes I'll finish somthing but all that often, as for anthro art I drawn that in the past, and am just as likely to keep on doing so, mostly as a hobby currently, with the occasional con sketch for people I know.

Later

IceCat

well I do do finished stuff but as I've said I'm mostly keeping it for my main website whenever I get around to coding it, that and I'm still experimenting with new materials and techniques, as a self taught artist I don't have a luxury of having someone to guide me with new things.

Lafarga · Recusant Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 14

I need to have the last word even though Computolio told me to knock it off.

Eh, whatever.

DA · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 320

No I need to have the last word despite having proved myself to have no idea what I'm talking about

Dude go get yet hind brain a brush up on humans cos it's pretty obvious you know nothing about anatomy and how to do it, or better yet send the actual artist over here, I'd like to have a coversation with someone who actually has a clue and isn't just throwing out insults, better yet why don't you figure this out, I typed that reply hours before he said to knock it off, seemed a waste not to post it. Especially with the arm picture..I mean dude people drop the entire arm loose when they straighten it, that includes the shoulder, seems like I wouldn't be doing the world a favour if I let you think that wonked edit of yours was right.

Lafarga · Recusant Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 14

blah blah blah

God, shut up already. It's over. Nobody cares.

Computolio · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 349

When I say stop it, I mean it.