Crush...Yiff...Destroy!

The_Censorship_Nazi · Rasophore Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 59

Here's a little something you might want to take a look at...I'll tell you why when I have a good number of responses.

Rankin · Coadjutor Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 488

A proper diagnosis? I, as king and ruler of the universe refuse to believe the simpletons whom claim that I am delusional.

The_Censorship_Nazi · Rasophore Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 59

*snicker* I see.

Genghis · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 186

Apparently I had mild Dyspraxia as a kid, if that counts. I don't think it's even on my record any more - hell, I'm not even sure if they recognised it as a condition back then. This was, what, fifteen years ago?

Wayd Wolf · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Oct 2003 Posts: 456

I've never been formally diagnosed. Although I have been told I have severely violent homicidal sociopathic tendencies but not by anyone still living.

:twisted:

:shock:

And your point is...

What? Come back here and talk with me. I'm not gonna rip your throat out... Yet...

Wait!

Damn. Another night by myself and a bottle of booze.

Donotsue · Coadjutor Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 106

All the pesents dare call us crazy when they see the pigs we've drawn! =)

We are amused! =)

The_Censorship_Nazi · Rasophore Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 59

Well, okay, here's what I've been getting after. I've been trying to prove a little theory of mine - I believe that a large portion of "furries" are also afflicted with mental disorders of various types. It seems to me that a lot of them have been diagnosed or implied to have certain disorders like autism or Asperger's Syndrome, so it is entirely possible that the furry fandom is really more of a catch-all autism support group. Mind you, I have no proof of this - hence, the little poll. Still won't prove anything, but...

PurpleDucky · Recusant Joined: 27 Nov 2003 Posts: 8

Eh, I don't think the whole autisim/Asperger's/messed in the headness is unique to furry. The sort of outlook that those disorders bring to a person tends to draw them towards the, uh, nerder spectrum of things. I've known a few folks who were obsessed with anime, or comic books, or whatever wacky thing have you... and yeah, I do know one guy that likes furry.

Uh... I think my point is that it's a wider-ranging geek thing. Now, if there was a way to tell where the greater number of messed up people were, in the various fandoms out there...

The_Censorship_Nazi · Rasophore Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 59

Well, if your plans were anything violent, I'd have to respectfully decline, considering that I myself fall in that spectrum. (I was diagnosed with autism a year or two after I was born, see...)

Pycnopodia · Coadjutor Joined: 31 Dec 2003 Posts: 72

'Chronical' depression here.

My theory, fat people dont like being fat thus hiding themselves in a fursuit, I cant say I would prefer them in a bikini over a fursuit.

Quantum Coyote · Qualificator Joined: 12 May 2004 Posts: 40

It's interesting you mention Autism and Aspergers, and not depression(which I'm not ashamed to admit I suffer from, im in remission however, on zoloft, and doing well), anxiety, or personality disorder.

I've had a hypothesis for a while that there is a higher than average incidence of these disorders(autism+asp) in the furry population. They are socially disabling and often produce 'eccentric' individuals. 'Eccentric' being the lower limit sort of definition that can be applied to most furs :)

Personality Disorders are generally nasty and hard to treat (obsessive compulsive PD, antisocial PD, histrionic PD, etc) and I think there may be an above average number of these as well with furs.
Indeed with all these disorders, but autistics may be especially drawn in.

Oh, and in Bodily Dysmorphic Disorder, the brain's 'map' of where the body begins and ends etc. can change. It may.. be that certain individuals actually FEEL like that tail they are wearing is part of them, at quite a low level of proccessing in the brain. This may happen to a certain extent with normal individuals, but with BDD it could be extensive.

BTW, don't run me out of town for being a prude spewing all this psychobabble, though I have studied the neurosciences for a number of years (toots own horn), I'll be happy to discuss any differences you may have with my opinions. If I'm off topic or something, well then just kick my ass :)

-QC

-----
I love those cowboys, I love their gold,
I loved my uncle, God rest his soul,
Taught me good, Lord, Taught me all I know
Taught me so well, I grabbed that gold
And I left his dead ass there by the side of the road.

-Grateful Dead

ZenZhu · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 475

My theory, fat people dont like being fat thus hiding themselves in a fursuit, I cant say I would prefer them in a bikini over a fursuit.

Making a fursuit is much easier than slogging your greasy butt to the gym every other day. That's my theory on the whole "I'm really a svelte cheetah herm trapped in a lardy fanboy's body" phenomenon.

The_Censorship_Nazi · Rasophore Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 59

I never put much on that theory. I recognize my humanity and am rather proud of it. I've been making an effort to get out of the whole fat demographic too - so far, since January '04, I've lost almost 40 pounds and I plan to lose more! Also taking gym classes at college and eating better, I think. Once I manage to kick myself into improving my hygiene, I might actually be passable for a normal person...

mouse · Coadjutor Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 662

I've lost almost 40 pounds and I plan to lose more! Also taking gym classes at college and eating better, I think. Once I manage to kick myself into improving my hygiene, I might actually be passable for a normal person...

forget atkins, I hear the results of the "Crystal Meth Diet" are amazing !

"cigarettes and cocaine" is supposed to work well also

ZenZhu · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 475

Or the South Beach Diet... you eat nothing but beach sand.

DA · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 320

Quite frankly 'mental disorders' are becoming more common...why? It's not because more people are suffering from them or more are being diagnosed...no it's simply because 'mental disorders' are the new excuse when the real reason is either sheer laziness or stupidity.

I am Dyslexic (confirmed not self dignosed) Obsessive compulsive, suffer from anxiety and depression (confirmed again).

Most of the claimants to 'mental disorders' just need a bloody good smack upside the head and told to get off their damn fat asses and put some effort in. To give you an example:

Me: Severe dyslexia affecting motor functions, writing, vocalisation, hearing and emotional response. (I also have physical disabilitys)

My sister: Minor retardation (and I suspect it wasn't even that)

Me: worked hard and fixed or worked my way around my problems.

My sister: babied by one after the other 'special schools'.

Me: intelligent, responsible and mature individual who has her own flat.

My sister: Brain-dead, everythings an excuse (No she's not a greedy pig for eating 12 packets of crisps in an hour, it's not her fault her appetite MADE her do it) immature, selfish and incapable of looking after herself for more than 30 seconds.

Mental disorders are fast becoming a catch all excuse for laziness

:evil:

ZenZhu · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 475

Quite frankly 'mental disorders' are becoming more common...why? It's not because more people are suffering from them or more are being diagnosed...no it's simply because 'mental disorders' are the new excuse when the real reason is either sheer laziness or stupidity.

Bammo... nail on the head. I think the most overdiagnosed disorder these days is ADD. I think many kids that suffer from a simple lack of discipline wind up being doped up on drugs simply because their parents won't take the time to set boundaries and stick by them.

Then there's all of the adults that are taking medication for the disorders associated with stress and depression and such. Not to say that there aren't certifiable cases out there that need medical assistance.... but we live in a culture now where the answer to pretty much anything is to pop a pill. You have pills to help you relax, when maybe what you need to do is turn off the GD cell phone, limit the kids to ONE after school activity.. instead of shuttling them from band to soccer to karate... and just sit.... sit with a book... with your spouse... with nothing. As a Buddhist, part of my practice is shikantaza or "just sitting." Basically, that's the Soto Zen meditation. Even without the whole Zen aspect, I think a lot of people could go off of medications for their perceived problems if they'd just take at least 5 minutes a day and sit.. clearing/emptying their mind.

Donotsue · Coadjutor Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 106

Not to sound like Naylorpublican... but...

Was Hitler Youth such a bad thing after all?
Gave the brats some order, feeling of belonging and lotsa interesting things to do! =D

...like marching and heiling... =)

--------------------------------------------------
Sit down and STUDY!

Rusty · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 82

I see what you guys mean,

As some examples, I've always had a short attention span, but that doesen't mean I have ADD, it just means I have to be a bit more diciplined when it comes to paying attention and staying focused on a tasked.

I've sometimes had problems where I read something and totally misread it. But that doesen't neccessarily mean I'm dyslexic, most likley I just need to slow down when reading certain things or something.

I think a big part of the problem with misdiagnosis is people trying to being something they arn't. We live in a world where it's getting to the point where there is esentually one way a person's intelligence and such is measured and if you don't match up to that perfectly, you are thought to have something wrong with you. IMO, our very society is setting people up to fail in life unless they fit in exactly with that is considered to be the norm. This is especially prevelant in the school system where it's set up so that unless you're accademically inclinded, you're basically screwed. If you struggle accademincally, people ask as if something is wrong with you instead of considering that perhaps you're simply not accademcially minded and are instead strong in others areas.

It's just like not everyone is naturally social or makes friends easily. Just because someone is not doesen't mean they have some sort of social problem, it's just the way their 'wired'.

(that's of course not meant to say you cannot overcome those difficulties, they can of course be overcome)

Unfortunatly, in our society, rather then teach people to oversome such challenges, it teaches us to use them as excuses to give up and not even try. It's very distressing the way the younger generations are being taught to use these things as an excuse to give up rather then to view them as something that can be overcome. I'm not sure what the solution is.

Wayd Wolf · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Oct 2003 Posts: 456

There's never a Jim Jones denoument to any of this, is there, with furry?

*sigh*

Much of so-called mental disorders rest on not things beyond control, but simple choice. Depression almost always accompanies low self esteem which is really an arrogant attempt to make yourself and the world believe you are a pile of shit no matter how untrue it is, so you act like a schmuck until they start thinking you're shit... self-fulfilling prophecy.

Furries need to say "fuck it", believe in themselves as more than they think they are, and act based on that.

Instead, we get all these pathologies, forty-two year old heterosexual virgins gone jailhouse gay who think boffing in rayon fur is cool. So on, so forth.

Somewhere between total apathy and complete indifference is the cheesburger in margaritaville I've been sitting down with and that takes care of all other things. While all about me are losing their heads, I'm so laid back I fall over.

Choice.

The alternative is bathing in a whole lot of blood, law of the jungle and all, and I can't find anyone important enough to get down to that level with. Easier to hand them a shot of whiskey and laugh.

Rankin · Coadjutor Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 488

In before Atkins derail. Oh, wait, that's me.

Before I got into furry, I was wasting my time by drinking. That's about it. I'd quaff a fifth or two of JD, and wash it down with 12 pints of Guinness. That was my meal. For the whole day. (Ongoing, of course)

After I got into furry, I stopped drinking so much, and eventually gave up. I was nearly 300lbs, if not, and am now back to a managable 180 with a 32" waist.

So, furry wasn't all bad for me. I admit it.

Donotsue · Coadjutor Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 106

People are encouraged to be free ...and "themselves" -Deviant even!
But you also haveta succeed... in business or whatever.. =)

Too much personal freedom but too much pressure too!
You didn't see as much crazypersons just 50 years ago... and they went
thru war!
Let's ban MTV, have a gene pool clencing WWIII and.. blame canada? =)
At least bring back the boarding schools and canings! =)

I was never good at school.. but the mental caining was brutal in the Animation
school.. and I benefitted from it in the end! =)
----------------------------------------------------
Layout teach Mark byrne: This is fuckin SHITE!!! -A-GAIN!!!

The_Censorship_Nazi · Rasophore Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 59

I think we've got a good program going here now. We ought to spread the word - but try to be subtle. One person at a time is okay, you know? You can't FORCE people to change...only suggest.

Wayd Wolf · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Oct 2003 Posts: 456

I don't know how anyone get heavier when they drink instead of eat, but who the fuck knows?

I've been fit, unfit, somewhere in between. WTF did it matter? Not much. Got laid anyhow, drunk enough to proposition my own sister(man she's got a nasty right hook), into more blade fights than I care to remember, into more stupid crap than's probably healthy. All the really good fun you can spend the first half of your son's life telling him to avoid and the second half laughing about it over the barbecue hoping his mom don't hear.

Been depressed, suicidal, homicidal, spermicidal(condomania), germicidal(two week obsession with disinfectants), etc.

Been places I would rather forget and other places I wish I could remember clearly.

What gets you places is attitude. And when you forget that the world works ultimately based on the law of the jungle, you fuck up. As long as you remember that the object is to be the 400 pound gorilla and never be flustered, and let all and sundry know it, then you're fine. Women love that, guys respect it, your parents stop nagging you.

Forget, become obvious prey, and you're fucking toast. Fat, skinny, in between. You look like a loser, you begin to act like one, you do everything that's so wrong for you.

But when you have work, and good work, it's a matter of time. I mean, I now toss my heavy duty fiberglass ladder around like it's nothing. I do it as many as two hundred times a day. And I can still go home and do a lot of manual labor. My belt has to keep having new holes put in it and the slack hangs down, kinda obvious. My mother says I look thin. I can wear leather pants without looking bad. I feel great.

All a matter of attitude. Furries look at this labor and say, "man that's some awful hard work. Must suck."

I say, "how many people do you know who go to an eight hour a day health club, six days a week, and get paid as much as two thousand dollars to do it?" And if I want to take cynical pleasure, I can always find extra joy in the power to disrupt the cable television of some very wealthy snobs. "It'll be reconnected after lunch. Be back in a couple hours..."

mouse · Coadjutor Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 662

What gets you places is attitude. And when you forget that the world works ultimately based on the law of the jungle, you fuck up. As long as you remember that the object is to be the 400 pound gorilla and never be flustered, and let all and sundry know it, then you're fine. Women love that, guys respect it, your parents stop nagging you.

Forget, become obvious prey, and you're fucking toast. Fat, skinny, in between. You look like a loser, you begin to act like one, you do everything that's so wrong for you.

You make it sound so easy

I know people who have done everything right and got nothing or got screwed and never went anywhere, or will never go as far as they should have.

I've known people who have it made for no reason at all, and definatly don't deserve it.

Is it people's own fault a fair amount of the time, sure. Always? no way, not even close. shit happens and sometimes things just don't work out.

PurpleDucky · Recusant Joined: 27 Nov 2003 Posts: 8

Still, even when shit happens and things go wrong, what's the most productive thing to do? Pick yourself up and keep going, or sit in a heap and cry about it, hoping other people will make it all better?

Just sayin'.

Wayd Wolf · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Oct 2003 Posts: 456

What gets you places is attitude. And when you forget that the world works ultimately based on the law of the jungle, you fuck up. As long as you remember that the object is to be the 400 pound gorilla and never be flustered, and let all and sundry know it, then you're fine. Women love that, guys respect it, your parents stop nagging you.

Forget, become obvious prey, and you're fucking toast. Fat, skinny, in between. You look like a loser, you begin to act like one, you do everything that's so wrong for you.

You make it sound so easy

I know people who have done everything right and got nothing or got screwed and never went anywhere, or will never go as far as they should have.

I've known people who have it made for no reason at all, and definatly don't deserve it.

Is it people's own fault a fair amount of the time, sure. Always? no way, not even close. shit happens and sometimes things just don't work out.

"Deserving it" to... para-quote if you will... is an extraneous judgement of opinion and not of fact. They are where they are and that's that. The way and how wasn't luck, random chance, heavenly preference... It happens in a series of fairly obvious events and crossings of happenstance. But happenstance is merely something to be exploited and if you're not in the right mindset, and of the right way of doing things, you'll miss the chance.

And chances are around us constantly. For instance, my most recent project is winding down and yet, I've got a bunch of other things I can do and still make plenty of money, and keep myself going strong. Or I can whine about ONE, repeat, ONE, thing that's gone away and miss all the other things I can do instead.

I refuse to hear the horsecrap about people doing everything right and still losing. What was the definition of "right"? Did they scrimp and save and invest every spare penny on good things or spend them on video rentals, pizza take-out, and comics? I know SHITLOADS of people who LOOK like they did everything right and were good people but a quick off the cuff analysis showed they fucked up left and right, avoiding responsibility in their own lives, and tried to go for the coveted mantle of VICTIM instead.

Yes, there are victims. But of OTHER PEOPLE and THEIR ACTIONS. It wasn't some mysterious predestiny or Murphy's Law. And how that ends up is a matter of your choice. Again, there's that choice thing. You CHOOSE how to act, you CHOOSE how to re-act.

Since I started taking stock of me and what happens to me, and not bullshitting myself, my life has improved dramatically. And I CHOOSE not to let the pitfalls be a way of life as some others do. I get back up and forge ahead.

Know this, and get it through completely people. Humans are bitchy, nasty, selfish little predators by nature. Left to their own devices, their own worst impulses, they will do bad things to each other. If you let your fellow man perceive you as weak, as a mark, as a pigeon, even some of the best and nicest people you've ever known will treat you with much less respect and dignity than if they came effectively with hat in hand, you being the king of the jungle.

Stand up straight, laugh in the face of adversity, where others say it is too hard or too much work you shrug and do it anyways, you find the silver lining around every cloud. Or you could embrace the modern way of stealing defeat from the jaws of victory and finding the dark cloud at the center of every silver lining, and with a delusionally clear conscience, think you did everything right when if you weren't afraid to be hard on yourself, and dig deeper, you might find you're wrong, and you fucked up.

Nothing personal Mouse. I just will not be deterred from this knowledge now. Every time I ever have, my life's turned to shit. Furries wallow in it. They need to be their own drill sargents, kick their own asses, and never accept less from themselves than their truly very best, not what their wounded self-esteem and inane egos allow them to admit to.

Shit happens, but what follows? Do you lay in the shit or do you wipe it off and proceed?

Rusty · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 82

"Deserving it" to... para-quote if you will... is an extraneous judgement of opinion and not of fact. They are where they are and that's that. The way and how wasn't luck, random chance, heavenly preference... It happens in a series of fairly obvious events and crossings of happenstance. But happenstance is merely something to be exploited and if you're not in the right mindset, and of the right way of doing things, you'll miss the chance.

I disagree, 100%! The simple fact is that some people have acess to far more opportunities then others. It's 90% who you know, not what you know. Luck and random chance have a lot to do with it, it has very little to do with exploting anything or mindset. Ever wonder why the people with connections always seem be the ones that get ahead and are achiving things that many can only dream of?

I'm sorry but I've never gone with this whole 'take control of your life!'. I'm not saying it's all nonsence but even with a wonderfully positive and strong personality, there is only so far you can go if no one will give you a chance. Yes, even if you keep having opportunities thrown at you like crazy, if you don't take/acccept them, then you're not going to go far either but if you're not even getting a single opportunity then it's hard to be able to get very far.

If success were as easy as having a positive attitude and strong personality and determination, we'd live in a much diffrent world; in such a world, terms like equal opportunity would mean something. And personally, I think such a world would be a better place. But we don't live in such a world, it's amazing how often it's all about people giving you a chance. I'm sure many of the worlds successfull people all got their start because someone gave them a chance, that coupled with the right attitude, at least a little luck and being at the right place at the right time.

It's amazing how little it can take to turn a persons life arround for the better, often all it takes is one person believeing in them and giving them a chance to help them get the right attitude and mindset.

Donotsue · Coadjutor Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 106

You can't become an oil tycoon anymore.. You're definately in a wrong place at the wrong time.. =)
But you can kick yourself to do the smallest things..
Get to that art class or.. attend to a lesson or send that job application...
And not just say "I wish I could draw like you!" =)

I got my break when I was hired to a tiny studio to draw advertizing comics... After a while we expanded onto TV commercials, partly
thanks to my animation skills.

After 4 and a half years of building the Emailcartoon.net some recognition, I was temporarily laid off because there isn't much to do
right now...And what little there would've been, boss decided to let a few estonian students, who work for free, to do it!

Boss keeps teling us he can't keep us sitting there doing nothing.. Money is tight...and then goes and buys himself a new Chrysler.
He seems to appreciate his precious artists as much as Mr Eisner...

Being slightly pissed off about this lack of appreciation, I'll be handing in my resignation when I'm again needed to do someting post
haste and overnight! >=)

The point of all this? I dunno... =)
Shit happens.. but I'm not gonna bitch if I didn't get another drawing job for a while. -Laying asphalt or something else physical
could be mentally relaxing for a while.. and it'd pay better!

eatenmyeyes · Recusant Joined: 23 Jan 2004 Posts: 18

Quite frankly 'mental disorders' are becoming more common...why? It's not because more people are suffering from them or more are being diagnosed...no it's simply because 'mental disorders' are the new excuse when the real reason is either sheer laziness or stupidity.

Bammo... nail on the head. I think the most overdiagnosed disorder these days is ADD. I think many kids that suffer from a simple lack of discipline wind up being doped up on drugs simply because their parents won't take the time to set boundaries and stick by them.

Unfortunately, the diagnosis of choice switches about every eighteen months. It largely is the parents' fault. I was somewhat shielded by my folks from my own diagnosis (high functioning Aspergers) until I was out of high school. Sadly, the long term impact will probably be a generation honestly convinced that they are mental cripples.

Rusty · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 82

In my opinion, motivation is the issue for most people. I'm the kind of person that once I get motivated, I find that I do work really hard and in fact, classes where I enjoyed the work, I usually did put the extra effort in and did well (although it didn't feel as much like work as I enjoyed it)

In the workplace, if I feel I can make a difrrence (for the better), wether it be in someone's life or in a companies day to day buiness, then I find that really gets me motivated. Unfortunatly, since I'm not being given a chance to make that diffrence, well, I'm not getting anywhere.

Getting back to the key issue, what scares me is that, we seem to be raising a generations of people that are using whatever excuse they can find to simply give up on their dreams and stop trying. Hence, the problem of using the 'well, I can do that because I have (insert problem here)' rather then teaching people to work hard to overcome the problem and use it as motivation to try even harder, we are teaching people to use it as an excuse to stop trying. I'm honestly not sure where we went wrong and/or when this started but I am interested in opinion on how to correct this problem.

mouse · Coadjutor Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 662

The way and how wasn't luck, random chance, heavenly preference...

It happens in a series of fairly obvious events and crossings of happenstance.

Does that not include luck? If you go to a casino, what decides the throw of the dice, wayd? Your "willpower in the face of adversity"?

give me a fuckin break

I refuse to hear the horsecrap about people doing everything right and still losing. What was the definition of "right"? Did they scrimp and save and invest every spare penny on good things or spend them on video rentals, pizza take-out, and comics? I know SHITLOADS of people who LOOK like they did everything right and were good people but a quick off the cuff analysis showed they fucked up left and right, avoiding responsibility in their own lives, and tried to go for the coveted mantle of VICTIM instead.

Ok then, the world isnt full of trillionaire CEOs simply because people just arn't trying hard enough (or whatever your fix-all here is).

:roll:

there is only so much to go around. some get more, some get less. someone is going to get fucked over.

Im sure in your mind anyone without - automatically doesnt deserve.....whatever

Stand up straight, laugh in the face of adversity, where others say it is too hard or too much work you shrug and do it anyways, you find the silver lining around every cloud.

Why don't you sell this shit as self-help tapes and give me a cut of your millions since I am giving you the idea.

Rusty · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 82

Does that not include luck? If you go to a casino, what decides the throw of the dice, wayd? Your "willpower in the face of adversity"?

Exactly, willpower can only take you so far but ultimatly, if lady luck isn't on your side and no one will give you a chance, it's very hard to get far, let alone be prosperous.

Even in a game where strategy plays a part in it like say blackjack, ultimatly, if you keep getting crappy cards, it's hard to win (unless the dealer is also getting crappy cards). Or in poker, TV may portray it was being all about skill and having the right attitude, but ultimatly, if you're not getting good deals, it's a hell of a lot harder to win then if you are.

Wayd Wolf · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Oct 2003 Posts: 456

(RANT MAYBE, BUT OPINION, LAST ENTRY BY ME IN THIS THREAD)

I forget the argumentative style name, and David that ding-dong would remember it, but you're basically assuming the extreme and when that doesn't happen, and of course wouldn't, claiming that invalidates the whole thing. I was never good at those debate classifications.

NOWHERE did I say that everyone should be a tycoon, trillionaire, etc.

I DID say that it is a matter of exploiting happenstance by having the mind to see the opportunity, and do the appropriate thing with it.

If you have $100 extra, what do you do with it? Spend it? Invest it? What?

MOST EVERYONE SPENDS IT.

Here's one thing that you can do. SAVE money. One quarter of EVERY one of my paychecks goes into savings. When I hit a predetermined amount, I will split that three ways, and get three CDs(those are Certificates of Deposit to you Compact Disc age people). One thirty day, one sixty day, one ninety day. As each matures, I will set them to roll over into ninety day CDs leaving me with a new CD maturing every month and if I don't need the money for something Earth shattering, I keep it rolling. I earn interest and can't spend the money frivolously.

Now, you're probably going to say that's trite nonsense from an investment tract. Fine. DON'T SAVE. SPEND, SPEND, SPEND! Let me see what you can do with the grand amount of $0.00 in your pocket.

Here's another thing that you can do. STOP saying "I CAN'T" and START saying "I CAN". Learn that which you do not presently know and accept that you aren't going to be perfect at it nor were you meant to and that the learning and striving are the point, not the outcome. Apply that which you learn to your now expanding repetoire.

Again, you're probably going to say that's some sort of new age horseshit and you don't have to change. Fine. DON'T ADAPT. Get left in the dust by those who did adapt. Say hello to those people who decided to limit themselves to work subject to outsourcing, not to mention those that still think we should be the world leaders in butter churn and buggy whip manufacture.

I don't have space on this board to go over the skills in my resume. Let's just say it runs FOUR PAGES and leave it at that. Not my fault every job teaches something new and that I'm observant enough to record it. You should be too.

Don't feed me nonsense about not everyone being able to be a brain surgeon or corner the market. The point wasn't some subjective ultimate, but improvement over where they are. TRYING as opposed to NOT TRYING and merely claiming they did.

I live in a shitty house in a shitty neighborhood, and you know what? If I wanted, I could probably live entirely in ONE of the two apartments in this house and rent the other and with that $600+/month rental turn around and pay my mortgage with it, thus freeing up $600. I CHOOSE to occupy both floors as a single family and ACCEPT FREELY the loss of $600 to my income. But I NEVER at any time look at it as beyond my control. It was a choice.

But my mortgage is under $70K left to pay out at an absurd 10% rate thanks to my bad credit. BUT... If I pay the maximum advance against my mortgage every month(before htting the point where the early payment penalty hits), directly against the principle, I won't be shelling out anything like the quarter million dollars I'd ordinarily spend over the life of the full thirty-year mortgage.

(I strongly recommend learning all about the principle of compound interest and the various formulas. Unsecured debt, and even much secured debt, is only a way of making someone else money off of your inability, or more to the point, WILLFUL CHOICE, to not delay your gratifications. You're not getting credit, you're BUYING DEBT. My next home is either my last home until I croak or an investment property and my next vehicle is a work vehicle.)

In fifteen years at most, my house can be paid off completely and long before that, I can use it as leverage towards a down payment on a mortgage on some other multi-family house, rent that out at $1200-$1800/month and pay the second mortgage on the first house and the first mortgage on the second house and still have money left over to plow into covering all of my utility bills. All while still working.

I recognize I have choices and opportunities. So does everyone else. You might have to do things in combination with another person. You may have to rely on others. But, that is part of life. But, you are NOT helping things if you subsist off of others when you most assuredly DO NOT have to. Most people do whether they understand it or accept it.

Every day I run into people who are sucking off the system, living on disability when they could work and with a little hard work, a little SMART work, and a little delayed gratification(yeah, I know, we HAVE to have a brand new PC, LCD monitor, plasma display, and other crap RIGHT NOW because the universe itself will self-destruct if we don't), they could have had way more in their lives.

Don't give me guff people about disability. I know way too many people in the world of welfare and disability and 90% are fully capable of work. It's that they won't work the jobs that are there and instead redefine the situation to mean that those jobs they feel beneath them are therefore nonexistant. I cleaned toilets, gathered carriages, packed shoppers' purchases, etc., etc., etc. in my youth. I worked the shitty jobs and learned some very important things from them that are the whole point of them.

Hard work, smart work, not giving up, take responsibility, drive yourself, delay your desires from a pitiful here and now to a much better there and then, so on and so forth. Most people don't learn those basics, and instead spend their lives believing that those who won out in their view must have either had unfair help or random chance they didn't. No, they just had the brains to recognize their opportunities when they appeared and do the right thing with them.

EVERY TIME I have forgotten those things, my life has gone downhill. When I remembered and stuck by them, things turned around.

One last thing, as I'm not going to continue this thread myself any further. I go through life as a 400lb. gorilla of confidence. And I let others know it by my nonchalant but unflappable exterior. People read me right off as saying by virtue of my voice, my stance, my way, as saying "I am not afraid of you, you should fear me; I am not going away, I will not be beaten, you will have to kill me to stop me." When I walk into job interviews, go to court, stop in at a bar, buy groceries, I leave no doubt that you can either be my friend or be my enemy and thus be my prey.

Lead, follow, or get the fuck out of my way, because if you won't take the chance, I will and if I don't make it, I won't say I tried. I'll be too busy trying again to have time. And when I am gone, let no one ever say that my life was too hard or too anything. It was my life. I'm the one who gets to make that judgement and I won't judge it lightly or easily or have it cheapened allowing someone else to do so.

Wayd Wolf · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Oct 2003 Posts: 456

Does that not include luck? If you go to a casino, what decides the throw of the dice, wayd? Your "willpower in the face of adversity"?

Exactly, willpower can only take you so far but ultimatly, if lady luck isn't on your side and no one will give you a chance, it's very hard to get far, let alone be prosperous.

Even in a game where strategy plays a part in it like say blackjack, ultimatly, if you keep getting crappy cards, it's hard to win (unless the dealer is also getting crappy cards). Or in poker, TV may portray it was being all about skill and having the right attitude, but ultimatly, if you're not getting good deals, it's a hell of a lot harder to win then if you are.

I can't resist making this the last thing... EXACTLY WHICH OF YOU IS MAKING THE PLAYING OF BLACKJACK YOUR DAY JOB AND WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN SMOKING TO MAKE THAT DECISION?!

People give you chances based on their perceived gain and if you walk in with piss-poor victim attitude you're either not going to get the job(90% of the time) or be candidate number one for being their personal emotional fuck toy(the other 10% of the time). CONFIDENCE is VERY POWERFUL, and VERY SEXY. How do you think people have wonderful social lives? Insecure, unconfident, weak-kneed wusses aren't fun to be around. Those with confidence are. Managers like them, women like them, guys like them, bankers like them, etc.

Or do you thrive on hanging with people who piss and moan about how they never had a chance? Cry me a freaking river...

Meanwhile, the best gamblers ALL DO HAVE CONFIDENCE. Losers do not. Simple choice, colors what you do, the hands you play, the amounts you bet, etc. Go in as a mark, get fleeced like a pigeon to cobble some phrases together.

Fins · Qualificator Joined: 19 Dec 2003 Posts: 25

Can't say I've been formally diagnosed with anything, though I did see a counselor for a while when I was in grade school. Unfortunately, I was (and still am) a bit of an enigma.

Unofficially, I believe I have a mild case of social phobia. It's not so much that I'm shy, but that I tend to "go blank" when others are around... especially if I am the center of attention. In short, I may look like a fool in public, despite having the IQ of a research scientist and wide-ranging interests. Fortunately it doesn't affect my 1 on 1 social skills outside of the dating realm... so I'm great at interviews etc. And once someone gets to know me a little, I'm free to be my affable self. Nevertheless, I plan on seeking treatment.

mouse · Coadjutor Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 662

I can't resist making this the last thing... EXACTLY WHICH OF YOU IS MAKING THE PLAYING OF BLACKJACK YOUR DAY JOB AND WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN SMOKING TO MAKE THAT DECISION?!

I dont gamble and my day job is credit card collections. You are always bitching about people only working 20 hours...well, I cant handle more than 20 hours of my job. And the sad part is, wayd, there is really is very few jobs in my area better than what I have right now. I am lazy and wont get a second job...I admit that. But Ive also been going to school and paying for it and other stuff (dental work) on my credit cards and buried myself. (with the industry the way it is it seems I most likely will NOT be getting a job with my 2 year degree...this is high comedy right here). You make this shit out to be so fucking easy...its a joke. I live with my parents and I'm fucked and Im not at all ashamed to admit that. I don't know if you noticed my location listed right over there on the left of your screen. I'd like to see you make big bucks in a depleted area like where I live.

You own your own business and it worked, how the fuck are most people supposed to do something like that? Where are you supposed to get skills to do something if you dont have money to go to school? If you work and go to school then you are doing each part time. In other words, you arn't going to be saving your money and you are going to take longer to finish school. Where are you supposed to get money to start a business? Its hard to get started and most small businesses fail in thier first year. You got lucky. You might tell me thats not the case, but Im saying it is.

Fins · Qualificator Joined: 19 Dec 2003 Posts: 25

CONFIDENCE is VERY POWERFUL, and VERY SEXY. How do you think people have wonderful social lives? Insecure, unconfident, weak-kneed wusses aren't fun to be around. Those with confidence are. Managers like them, women like them, guys like them, bankers like them, etc.

It's cyclical. If people have wonderful social lives, "managers like them, women like them, guys like them, bankers like them etc." they will be more confident. And this confidence will inspire more admiration from others. Though this cycle can work either way. If you're hated, you probably won't have much confidence. If you're in a bad cycle, try to break it somehow.

Then again, if we are talking about true mental illness, confidence probably won't help. Real mental problems can't be rationalized away. In my case, when I "go blank" I do not feel fearful, but *angry* that I've gone blank. It's not a lack of confidence that makes me come across as less-than confident in certain situations. I do not doubt my talents, nor my social awareness. And, in fact, I've been known to put the overly confident person in his or her place when he or she gets too cocky. After all, too much confidence is a sign of stupidity and weakness. I only respect confidence when it can be backed up.

Rusty · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 82

No, they just had the brains to recognize their opportunities when they appeared and do the right thing with them.

I too would have the brains to recognize opportunities. Maybe if I got any fucking opportunities that is.

It is almpost impossible to get a job where I live. Even the lowest level jobs get HUNDREDS of applications for even a minor part time posting. You have to be an expert at bloddy everything to get a decent job; even then they want massive experience and they get so many bloddy resumes that unless you know someone working there, it's virtually impossible to even get an interview.

If you have $100 extra, what do you do with it? Spend it? Invest it? What?

MOST EVERYONE SPENDS IT.

I would save it because I know I can't afford to spend that kind of money on stuff like CD's and pizza.

Here's one thing that you can do. SAVE money. One quarter of EVERY one of my paychecks goes into savings

Have you ever considered that maybe some people CANT AFFORD to save 1/4 of their pay? What about people that are living paycheck to paycheck because the fucking system takes so much of their money that they're being driven into the poor house? It's kind of hard to save money when you need every last peny in order to survive.

I can't resist making this the last thing... EXACTLY WHICH OF YOU IS MAKING THE PLAYING OF BLACKJACK YOUR DAY JOB AND WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN SMOKING TO MAKE THAT DECISION?!

I NEVER SAID I DID. I was just using it as an example.

Where are you supposed to get skills to do something if you dont have money to go to school?

Exactly, I would to be able to go back to school and expand my skills, but I can't afford it. Education is getting incredibly expensive and right now I don't have anywhere near the amount of money required to go back to school.

I to live at home, I too am not ashamed to admit that. I live at home because the cost of living here is insane and unless you've got a decent job, you might as well forget about being able to support yourself. Since it's virtually impossible to get a decent job (because of the lottery system of applying to them) getting out on your own is getting harder and harder.

I am sick of being told 'take charge of your life' bottom line is that, if no one will give me a chance then there is very little I can do.

Rusty · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 82

It's cyclical. If people have wonderful social lives, "managers like them, women like them, guys like them, bankers like them etc." they will be more confident. And this confidence will inspire more admiration from others. Though this cycle can work either way. If you're hated, you probably won't have much confidence. If you're in a bad cycle, try to break it somehow.

Exactly! It's like the famous saying 'it's easy to be a saint in paradice' , likewise, it's easy to be confident, happy and optomistic when your life is going great and people are treating you well. However, when you can't seem to get anywhere, it's only natural that a person is going to start feeling more negative.

The_Censorship_Nazi · Rasophore Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 59

Good grief! My "informal poll" has done evolved into a bleedin' flame war!

But I have to say, all of you have offered a lot of advice that I think will help me out. I was diagnosed with autism at a relatively early age, so I've lived with it for most of my life. I do realize that I've been spoiled by it now, though, so I've been trying to work harder to improve myself. Dieting with Weight Watchers has been the latest step, I think...

But I am also hoping to use my disorder to an advantage - I plan on turning my disorder into a public speaking career. How many people with autism are capable of expressing themselves, I wonder? I've noticed that a lot of people who talk about disorders DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE THEM. Mostly, the folks who do have disorders aren't very keen to talk about them, or simply don't know how to talk about it. It's very rare to find someone who both has a disorder and is quite capable and willing to talk about it candidly.

I do agree that disorders have become an excuse. I've met and heard of people who are supposedly afflicted (to use the term loosely) with thus and such disorder, and yet they seem perfectly normal to me. Hell, some people have a hard time believing that I have autism at all, until I start acting all weird around them, like speaking in different accents at random. On the whole, I try to behave myself though, which is probably more than can be said about others.

Again, thank you all for writing about this subject in such depth. It really helps me out, knowing all of this and knowing that I CAN apply it to my life. There may be arguments in this thread, but hey, what issues AREN'T argued about? If everyone's in agreement, there's probably something wrong...

Anonymous · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 767

I dont gamble and my day job is credit card collections. You are always bitching about people only working 20 hours...well, I cant handle more than 20 hours of my job. And the sad part is, wayd, there is really is very few jobs in my area better than what I have right now. I am lazy and wont get a second job...I admit that. But Ive also been going to school and paying for it and other stuff (dental work) on my credit cards and buried myself. (with the industry the way it is it seems I most likely will NOT be getting a job with my 2 year degree...this is high comedy right here). You make this shit out to be so fucking easy...its a joke. I live with my parents and I'm fucked and Im not at all ashamed to admit that. I don't know if you noticed my location listed right over there on the left of your screen. I'd like to see you make big bucks in a depleted area like where I live.

You own your own business and it worked, how the fuck are most people supposed to do something like that? Where are you supposed to get skills to do something if you dont have money to go to school? If you work and go to school then you are doing each part time. In other words, you arn't going to be saving your money and you are going to take longer to finish school. Where are you supposed to get money to start a business? Its hard to get started and most small businesses fail in thier first year. You got lucky. You might tell me thats not the case, but Im saying it is.

WAYD cannot be reasoned with.

I wouldn't even try.

People who say things like "life is hard, Deal with it", don't usually have to deal with it.

Sehvekah · Qualificator Joined: 11 Mar 2004 Posts: 22

Confidence, as anyone who actually remembers high school will tell you, is meaningless on it's own. The only thing it tells you is that "this person thinks they're hot shit", not that there's a reason for this, not that they have any ability to back it up, not that they're worth the oxygen they're using to put up what amounts to a cheap plastic mask for them to hide behind. The only time it even might have an affect is on those who are so weak in mind or will that they actually believe confidence makes a diffrence, though people who are so easily manipulated are going to have a hard time distinguishing amongst all the "confident" bullshitters.

The people who are hot shit prove it, but not by swaggering around like they're trying to make their balls go "clank" or talking shit about their accomplishments. They're the ones who speak by keepin' their mouth shut and doing the job.

As for disorders, I've never been officially diagnosed with anything and antisocial though I am, that was my choice, not the result of some genetic defect on my part(congenital defects on the part of society are another matter entirely).

ZenZhu · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 475

WAYD cannot be reasoned with.

I wouldn't even try.

People who say things like "life is hard, Deal with it", don't usually have to deal with it.

Wayd does make some good points. There's something to be said for the adage, "When life hands you lemons, make lemonade." I definitely submit more to his notion that there's always something you can do to rectify your current situation. Like Vash the Stampede says, there's always a solution, if you're willing to look hard enough for it. You could say that people who say "Life is hard. Deal with it." don't usually have to.. but, really, the folks that say that most often are the ones that definitely had to at some point in their life... they just figured out how to, so now it only looks like they don't have to.

Anonymous · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 767

Wayd does make some good points. There's something to be said for the adage, "When life hands you lemons, make lemonade." I definitely submit more to his notion that there's always something you can do to rectify your current situation. Like Vash the Stampede says, there's always a solution, if you're willing to look hard enough for it. You could say that people who say "Life is hard. Deal with it." don't usually have to.. but, really, the folks that say that most often are the ones that definitely had to at some point in their life... they just figured out how to, so now it only looks like they don't have to.

Life is hard because a small group of people want everyone else to find it hard so that they can profit from it.

Your minimum wage is their big fat bonus.

When Tesco’s supermarkets is making several billion pounds worth of profit a year, while paying minimum wage to the majority of it’s employees, You know there is something wrong.

Over the past 20 years the security of manufacturing jobs has been replaced with crappy service sector jobs, which put everyone except the fat cats at the mercy of the markets and the minimum wage.

In many cases, crappy service sector jobs are the only ones available

There is nothing that any one person can do about that aside from voting for the appropriate party who will deal with it.

ZenZhu · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 475

Er... okay.

ZenZhu · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 475

Meanwhile, the best gamblers ALL DO HAVE CONFIDENCE. Losers do not. Simple choice, colors what you do, the hands you play, the amounts you bet, etc. Go in as a mark, get fleeced like a pigeon to cobble some phrases together.

You could also argue that the best gamblers don't rely on luck. They tend to stay away from games that rely solely on luck of the draw, like slot machines, and tend towards games like poker that utilize a lot more than simply consigning your fate to the hand your dealt. Sometimes luck gives you a good hand, and you can ride it a little ways... but sometimes you get a bad hand, and you have to know how to stay in the game.

I guess that can be a good analogy for life... you can look at life like a slot machine... hoping some day for all of the dials to come up cherries, feeding the machine until then... or you can look at it like poker, where you're dealt a hand, but you've got a lot more in your arsenal to work with than simply the cards you're dealt... knowing when to play the good cards, and when not to be played by the bad cards.

So, when the chips are down, and you're holding nothing, what do you gotta do to convince her to ante up her bra? :D

PurpleDucky · Recusant Joined: 27 Nov 2003 Posts: 8

Life is hard because a small group of people want everyone else to find it hard so that they can profit from it.

Your minimum wage is their big fat bonus.

When Tesco’s supermarkets is making several billion pounds worth of profit a year, while paying minimum wage to the majority of it’s employees, You know there is something wrong.

Over the past 20 years the security of manufacturing jobs has been replaced with crappy service sector jobs, which put everyone except the fat cats at the mercy of the markets and the minimum wage.

In many cases, crappy service sector jobs are the only ones available

There is nothing that any one person can do about that aside from voting for the appropriate party who will deal with it.

So the system sucks. Boo hoo. As horrible as society/the system/the government/WHATEVER is, it still exists and we all still have to deal with it. As... ah... bombastic as Wayd tends to be, I'm siding with him on this. Even when all your options are bad, and even when you're poor and subsisting off of ramen, a person can still try to make things better. I'd rather make an effort and bomb spectacularly than sit around and curse at the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. Hey, at least I won't be bored...

I don't think anyone was claiming that people in this thread are lazy bastards that aren't trying or anything. If anything, I can see a lot of working hard just to keep things together. Why is everyone getting so damned defensive all of a sudden? So Wayd's doing well and going on about it. So what?

You could say that people who say "Life is hard. Deal with it." don't usually have to.. but, really, the folks that say that most often are the ones that definitely had to at some point in their life... they just figured out how to, so now it only looks like they don't have to.

Exactly. While I'm sure there are people out there that have had the proverbial silver spoon in their mouths who think that the poor rabble just have to work harder or something, I think the strongest proponents of "Life is hard. Deal with it" are ones who've been kicked around, only to get back up again and keep going. Since we're hauling out the anime quotes (Go go Full Metal Alchemist!), you've been given two legs. Get up and walk.

And if you're already walking? Good!

ZenZhu · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 475

A good analogy is anyone who is skilled at something.. golf, art, swimming, etc. They make it look effortless, and a lot of people figure they never had to work very hard to hone the skill they display. In truth, it is typically the ones that make it look so effortless that worked the hardest at it early on. Take Tiger Woods as an example. Sure, he has a lot of natural talent, but he also practiced very dilligently, and is one of the few golfers that includes physical training as part of his discipline.

Frequently, the folks with the "deal with it" attitude are the ones that have had to deal with it over and over, and learned that, as trite as it sounds, it works. Like my grandfather says: "What you can't help, don't worry about. What you can, hop to it!"

Another good example is completing a Master's thesis. I spent more than the typical 2 years completing mine. I had to teach myself how to use the software. I had to canvas a 14 square mile area all by myself, going door-to-door, asking about wells and attempting to either correlate existing well data to what I found, or, on the rare occasion I was permitted to take measurements, haul out my equipment and get what I needed.* I had to process the data (learned a lot about using Excel to make it easier) myself... build the digital model, test it, refine it..... all myself. Usually, folks have a lot of assistance from the professor that is their thesis advisor, but mine was no help.

I sweated and worried and agonized over the details, constantly worrying that it wasn't good enough. Often, it would be weeks before I'd show anything to my professor, because I felt so clueless and afraid he would pick it apart, and the work would be for nothing.

In the end, though, I came to realize that when I didn't know what to do, the best thing was to just do something. Heading in the wrong direction was better than heading in no direction. You can spend a lot of time worrying about which way to go. If you start off in the wrong direction, though, you usually catch it and shift what you're doing to the right direction long before you would have trying to figure it out before moving. Having my advisor tell me something needed to be improved was better than hearing nothing because I had done nothing. In fact, it usually made my job easier, because I at least had a better idea of what NOT to do.

Now, my wife's friends come to me for advice on completing their thesis. I frequently tell them to not worry so much about what to do, but just to start doing it. If my wife (who is completing her own thesis) worries about what to give her professor, I tell her something is better than nothing. Even crap is more tangible than nothingness. And typically, what you fear is crap is far better than what your professor had hoped for.

The point to this? Folks look at my last year of my thesis and think I had it easy. In truth, that ease is the result of 3 years of blood (literally in some cases.. like the thorn bushes I had to slog through to get to a spring), sweat and tears. At work, I'm frequently given the task of figuring out what to do in situations that are beyond the scope of what this place normally deals with. They think I do it easily. The truth is, I just start doing something. Like recently, I had to help a hospital figure out how to decontaminate and dispose of equipment and fluids from an autopsy on a patient that died of Creutzfeld-Jakob Disease.. a human variant of mad cow disease. The hospital's own staff was clueless and uncertain where to start. I, OTOH, just picked up the phone and started calling around to anyone and everyone that would have information.. Center for Disease Control, Johns Hopkins Medical, World Health Organization.... anyone. I made it look easy... but it was the result of a lot of hard work learning what to do.

Occasionally, those who say "deal with it" have never had to. Often, however, those who say it have had to deal with it a lot more than you.

*Interesting side note, at one house I went to, I was greeted at the door by a woman. When I explained I was wanting to know if they had a well on the property, and if I could take measurements, she got a look of extreme relief and exclaimed "You can come out honey!" Turns out her husband was hiding in their closet, because he thought I was a game warden that had come to arrest him for poaching elk recently.

Anonymous · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 767

Occasionally, those who say "deal with it" have never had to. Often, however, those who say it have had to deal with it a lot more than you.

Ever read Charles Dickens’s “Hard times”?

Read it… Observe that one of the points made is that people who say "Life is hard. Deal with it." don't usually have to.

You cannot argue with Charles Dickens.

ZenZhu · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 475

The man also wrote about a miser being visited by three spectres that were the ethereal embodiments of the Christmas season, but I'm not going to believe they exist just because he wrote it. So, yeah, you can argue with ol' Charlie.

Charisma · Coadjutor Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 158

Well, okay, here's what I've been getting after. I've been trying to prove a little theory of mine - I believe that a large portion of "furries" are also afflicted with mental disorders of various types. It seems to me that a lot of them have been diagnosed or implied to have certain disorders like autism or Asperger's Syndrome, so it is entirely possible that the furry fandom is really more of a catch-all autism support group. Mind you, I have no proof of this - hence, the little poll. Still won't prove anything, but...

I ahve to admit, I haven't been keeping up with the whole thread, so I missed the flamewar etc. But here's my two cents anyways...

My sister is as high on the autistic scale as you can get. She's 17 years old now but I'm sure if she could draw or write better than a four or five year old, she'd probably be a furry. Although she has a phobia of almost all real animals! She LOVES cartoons, videogames and cartoon characters being featured within them. I occasionally even draw her as a white rabbit with big breasts and a skinny waist because she likes thinking of herself as some kind of Barbie princess type of girl.

Whereas, with me, I have never been diagnosed with a mental disorder of any kind. Nor do I suspect any. I also love cartoons, videogames and anthro animal characters which I draw and write about. Maybe we encourage eachother to remian 'young at heart' in a way. We both still love buying toys and cartoons DVDs, but I don't think I do because she does, or vice versa. We actually have very little to do with eachother. She watches Cartoon Network dowstairs after school, while I'll be sitting in my room on Furry sites or playing cartoony video games if I'm not out.

I actually did a questionnaire at Pinks Realm along time ago a little like this. Almost everyone there just 'happened' to have a mental disorder of some kind. I just think that people who have had a childhood trauma or don't like reality very much, end up on the internet, read books, watch movies or join fan groups. Furry is just another way of entering your imagination and escaping reality. Humans do it all the time and there's nothing wrong with that.
For example, I would prefer to use an animal character in a game as oppsed to a human one, even if its stats/weapons/moves are crap. This is just a way of me trying to get away from reality and being something alot different.
I don't actually think you have to hate reality to want to escape it occasionally. You're just more likely to stay away from it longer if you don't like going back to it.

Dogthing · Coadjutor Joined: 26 Oct 2003 Posts: 207

You cannot argue with Charles Dickens.

FUCK DICKENS, FUCK HIM IN HIS GAPING WRINKLED ASS

I FUCKING HATE THAT MAN AND HIS BOOKS

TALE OF TWO CITIES WHAT THE FUCK YOU GUYS

M0us3_Zero · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 209

Yo... Ever heard of using bold type instead of all caps?

In any case, I am wondering how this thread switched to talking about Dickens. ?.?

Rankin · Coadjutor Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 488

...I am wondering how this thread switched to talking about Dickens. ?.?

Well, many of us enjoy dick.

Regardless, some femmes are almost as enjoyable as making a male your bitch.

I am so confused. :(

Anonymous · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 767

The man also wrote about a miser being visited by three spectres that were the ethereal embodiments of the Christmas season, but I'm not going to believe they exist just because he wrote it. So, yeah, you can argue with ol' Charlie.

Ignoramus.

You obviously don’t understand what literary vehicle is.

(HINT: IT’S NOT A HUMMER.)

Perhaps you would like me to explain what parables and metaphors are?

Anonymous · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 767

You cannot argue with Charles Dickens.

FUCK DICKENS, FUCK HIM IN HIS GAPING WRINKLED ASS

I FUCKING HATE THAT MAN AND HIS BOOKS

TALE OF TWO CITIES WHAT THE FUCK YOU GUYS

I AM THE LAW! JUDGE DREDD OMFG!

30 YEARS CREEPS!

DROKKING DICKENS!!!

FASCISM! LAW! JUSTICE! RETRIBUTION!

Rankin · Coadjutor Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 488

...

(HINT: IT'S NOT A HUMMER.)

Perhaps you would like me to explain what parables and metaphors are?

All this talk of hummers and pair-a-balls is making me HOT HOT HOT!

Dogthing · Coadjutor Joined: 26 Oct 2003 Posts: 207

All this talk of hummers and pair-a-balls is making me HOT HOT HOT!

What are you talking about sexy, you're already hotter than a neutron star RAWR <3 <3 <3 <3

ZenZhu · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 475

Perhaps you would like me to explain what parables and metaphors are?

I'm plenty familiar with them. The point was to illustrate that one work by Dickens can hardly be used to imply he was the inarguable authority on how to judge the merit of someone's opinions based on whether they focus on whining about their lot in life or learn to do something about it. Despite whatever skill Dickens may have had as a writer, his works alone cannot convince me that my observation that those who tend to say "deal with it" are those that typically had to is in error.

Give a man a fish.....

Teach a man to fish.....

Tell him to "deal with it" when he refuses to pick up the pole?

Rusty · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 82

You seem to be forgetting about the people that worked hard etc yet still got a raw deal and as a result have never gotten anywhere in life or certainlly haven't achieved what they should have. A lot of these people went through a lot of crap, jump through a lot of hoops etc and still got screwed.

It's very easy to lose faith and confidence in ones self when you got a raw deal in life, especially when you see others getting great deals.

I also strongly believe that you cannot judge a person until you've lived that persons life.

Yes, I understand the point about 'I make it look easy, but what you don't hear about is all of the hard work that went into this' , as an example, take someone whose learned and mastered several forms of martial arts. He or she might make it looks easy when they're doing incredble moves and able to knock a person out in self defence in a second or two. But what you don't hear about is the YEARS of very hard work, bruises, scars and even brocken bones they had to go through to get to that skill level.

But there are a lot of people that do have a legit claim to saying 'it's not fair' and it comes accross as being very condisending when someone says 'life isn't fair, deal with it'.

ZenZhu · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 475

I don't buy into the idea of folks getting stuck with a raw deal. Yes, folks do work hard and end up getting handed the short end of the stick sometimes. But what separates the "curl up and die" folks from the "deal with it" people is what they do with that short stick.

Sure, there are some "deal with it" (DWI for brevity) types that never had a hard day in their life. But, more often than not, the DWI types are the folks that did get a raw deal. But instead of giving into self pity, they rolled up their shirt sleeves and climbed their way out. If their raw deal didn't hit them as hard as it seemed, it's often because they prepared for it. They build a nest egg to carry them through a layoff or something, instead of buying bass boats or Cowboy Bebop DVD collections.

I'm in a situation I could almost deem a raw deal. Despite years of college, I'm with a firm where I'm doing little more than site inspections and scheduling recycling or disposal of hazardous and non-haz waste. The pay is decent enough, but not great. It's certainly not what I would have pictured myself doing 5 years ago. I could piss and moan about how I got a raw deal after all of my studying.. but instead, I've taken a career planning course, am educating myself in the use of software like Access and ESRI products, and networking to transition into a career field that has a lot more potential than my current one. Sure, it means I go home and study, rather than relaxing with the Playstation or something.. but, you gotta do what you gotta do.

To draw an analogy to a scene I witnessed a few years back, I was in a Mazio's with my wife. A woman in one booth went into diabetic shock and collapsed on the floor. There were women in booths on either side of her. On one side, the woman just curled up in a ball and started muttering "Oh Jesus.. Oh Jesus.. Oh Jesus..." over and over and over. The woman on the other side jumped down to the woman's side and asked her husband if she had any illnesses. He said she was diabetic. The woman told the manager to dial 911 to send someone over and tell her what she should do for the victim.

Let's say the woman in shock was the "raw deal." The woman that curled up in a ball was the kind that piss and moan about getting a raw deal and, yet, never do anything about it. The woman that had the manager dial 911 was the DWI type. Which one was of more use to the victim?

Often the difference between a raw deal and an opportunity is simply what you choose to do with it... the first step being to choose to do something. Sometimes "dealing with it" is just a matter of doing something... anything. I learned that with my thesis. Even striking out in the wrong direction was more beneficial than standing still in a pool of your own self-pity. When life hands you shit, sell it at the farmer's market as all-natural, organic fertilizer.

But there are a lot of people that do have a legit claim to saying 'it's not fair' and it comes accross as being very condisending when someone says 'life isn't fair, deal with it'.

Okay, I'll agree that there are folks that can legitimately claim life's not fair at some point in their life. But no one can legitimately claim it's not fair ad nauseum. If you're told "Thanks for 4 years of hard work, but we're replacing you with a couple of interns to cut costs." then, yeah, you can claim life isn't fair. If, however, it's six months later and you're still moping about the house in your underwear lamenting on how unfair life is, then your claim has lost all legitimacy. It may come off as condescending, but sometimes the person telling you to deal with it knows that is what a person needs to hear, because that's what someone had to tell them once. No one will really ever help anyone by saying "Aww.. poor li'l fellah. Life's just not fair to you, is it? Here, have some cash, courtesy of the folks for whom life is unusually fair." Sure, the government does that... but there are words for folks who live like that.. sponge.. mooch.. white trash..... Tough love, baby.

To build on the martial arts analogy, the folks that are often mewling "It's not fair!" are the types that took about a year of classes, and are pissed that they're not black belts yet. They don't want to have to put up with the bumps and bruises and years of training that it took the true black belts to learn to "deal with it."

Truth is, life isn't fair for anyone. Some folks have just learned to beat the world at its own game.

If you've been handed a raw deal and don't do anything to improve it.. sorry.. no claim for legitimacy has been filed with our office. Besides, I think most people have heard "life's not fair" enough as a child to know that defense doesn't hold up very often.

Sometimes, the bull lets you ride it to town. Other times, you gotta grab the bull by the horns. And sometimes, you gotta kick it in the balls to get it to move.

"There's always a solution, if you're willing to look hard enough for it." - Vash the Stampede

Sarah: "That's not fair!!!"
Jareth: "You say that so often. I wonder what your basis for comparison is."
-Labyrinth-

Rusty · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 82

I don't buy into the idea of folks getting stuck with a raw deal.

Happenes all of the time. That's why we have things like the cycle of poverty or the 'no job no experience, no experience no job' paradox that is virtually impossible to break out of, especially in this day and age where entry level positions are all but non existant with so called entry level positions wanting 3-5 years experience, fully and fluently billingual, tons of skills etc and paying $8 an hour.

They build a nest egg to carry them through a layoff or something, instead of buying bass boats or Cowboy Bebop DVD collections.

Er, not everyone spends money like that. A lot of people are unable to save money because they don't make enough and/or taxes take a massive % of their pay cheque. In this day and age, unemployment can last a long time, and nest eggs can quickly run out, even with budgeting and being conservative

I'm in a situation I could almost deem a raw deal. Despite years of college, I'm with a firm where I'm doing little more than site inspections and scheduling recycling or disposal of hazardous and non-haz waste. The pay is decent enough, but not great. It's certainly not what I would have pictured myself doing 5 years ago.

At least you've got a job! A lot of people can't even say that.

If you've been handed a raw deal and don't do anything to improve it.. sorry.. no claim for legitimacy has been filed with our office

And what if you have tried doing things to improve it, only to have no success (ie people sending out hundreds, perhaps thousands of resumes, pounding the pavenemnt, calling in every favour or contact and still having no success). Just because someone has had no success doesen't mean they are trying. A lot of people are in this situation, especially with the job market of today. There are a lot of areas where even jobs flipping burgers are *very* hard to get.

If, however, it's six months later and you're still moping about the house in your underwear lamenting on how unfair life is, then your claim has lost all legitimacy.

Yeah and what if they have pounded the pavment, applied to hundreds of jobs but still arn't working again? There are a lot of people that apply like crazy yet never hear anything. Where I live, the job market is insane, even entry level jobs have insane requirments; even so called Mc Jobs can so many resumes that their overwhelmed.

I cannot take more classes because I cannot afford that. Besides, I already tried that and the result was nothing, thousands of dollars down the tube.

A person cannot magically snap their fingers and make their life better and often the solutions these 'Deal with it' people are offering are unrealistic. Not to often I see a 'deal with it' person offer advice for how to break out of the cycles of poverty or the experience paradox.

And the fact remains is that I am not you, you are not me, and we come from very diffrent areas and have led very diffrent lives to the point where we almost might as well be from diffrent worlds. All it would take is someone giving me a chance for me to break out of this rut in my life, yet no one will for reasons that are beyond me. So until they do, there is not a lot I can do change my situation.

ZenZhu · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 475

And what if you have tried doing things to improve it, only to have no success (ie people sending out hundreds, perhaps thousands of resumes, pounding the pavenemnt, calling in every favour or contact and still having no success). Just because someone has had no success doesen't mean they are trying. A lot of people are in this situation, especially with the job market of today. There are a lot of areas where even jobs flipping burgers are *very* hard to get.

Then you gotta keep trying. Sometimes dealing with it is nothing more than persistance. Sent out thousands of resumes? Send out a thousand more.

Yeah and what if they have pounded the pavment, applied to hundreds of jobs but still arn't working again? There are a lot of people that apply like crazy yet never hear anything. Where I live, the job market is insane, even entry level jobs have insane requirments; even so called Mc Jobs can so many resumes that their overwhelmed.

Then keep trying. Lowes, Home Depot, Wal Mart, janitorial services, garbage collector, farmhand, temp services, pooper scooper at the zoo.... if you're desperate enough, no job is beneath you. Look in the paper's want ads. Sure, being in a housekeeper service might not be ideal, but how desperate is the person looking? A lot of folks these days, particularly young people, claim their are no jobs out there, when really what they mean is there are not many jobs they are willing to do, versus jobs that are available, but considered undesirable. I'm not saying that anyone here falls into that category... just that such things do occur.

I cannot take more classes because I cannot afford that. Besides, I already tried that and the result was nothing, thousands of dollars down the tube.

You definitely have to watch out for that. It's pretty easy to throw money away on classes that won't really serve you in the long run. I could go take a class on C++, but for getting in as a GIS analyst, it would be overkill. When determining what to train for for the job you want, career counsellors often recommend "reverse engineering." Figure out what you want to do, then what classes you need to create those opportunities. Dont' forget, too, that experiences you gained from school add up to more than simply what you got out of the books. If you had to do a lot of presentations, that's public speaking experience. If you had to do a lot of data processing, you can highlight that. Check around on the web for some of the free resources for tweaking your resume. A person is far more than the sum of their education and work experience. Perhaps they speak Spanish... even if it's not related to their job experience, it may come in handy... especially with the demographics in the US today.

A person cannot magically snap their fingers and make their life better and often the solutions these 'Deal with it' people are offering are unrealistic. Not to often I see a 'deal with it' person offer advice for how to break out of the cycles of poverty or the experience paradox.

I guess it depends on who its coming from. Most of the "deal with it" situations I've ever seen people discuss are perhaps better resolved with the perscription to not give up.

And that's the crux here, I think. Like the fellow moping about in his underwear six months after a layoff, convinced that the fates are consipiring against him, dealing with it isn't some elusive situation or magical solution. It's simple persistance. He gave up to early. How do you know when it's too early to give up? If you give up before you have another job, then it's too early. Sometimes you have to take a crap job to pay the bills while you continue to search for a better one.

All it would take is someone giving me a chance for me to break out of this rut in my life, yet no one will for reasons that are beyond me. So until they do, there is not a lot I can do change my situation.

Not with that attitude. In the job market, it's often said opportunities are not given, they're created. If you give up on yourself, figuring that your success or failure depends on someone else giving you a break, then there's probably not much chance of you breaking out of this rut you speak of. Study stuff online about beefing up your interviewing skills and cover letter. Take a really objective look at yourself. Not to sound harsh, but these "reasons that are beyond you" might be something you're falling short on during interviews. It may be some truly elusive cosmic conspiracy against you... but, job seekers often take a long time to break out of the cycle of failed applications/interviews because they're not being objective enough to see what each failure may teach them to improve on for the next interview.

Trying to get a job really is like marketing. You're the commodity you're trying to sell. You have to figure out how to sell yourself to your target audience.. the interviewer. Sometimes, you may have to do something that really isn't "you." Take the bohemian arty type that goes into an interview for a temp clerical position while they work on freelancing their art.... they go in wearing a tie, decent shirt... and jeans and sneakers. Chances are, the won't get the job.... and then they wonder why. They didn't package themselves properly. Heck, I read about one interviewer that makes note of whether or not an interviewee bothers to pull their socks up, or leaves them crumpled around their ankles. That's a little nit-picky, but what they're looking for is attention to detail.

Failing an interview isn't necessarily a reflection on your part, but you can learn from your failing. Contact the interviewer and see if you can find out what it was they thought you could improve on. Were your qualifications just not in line with the position? Could you have made better eye contact? See if they can take a moment to assess your strong points and your weaknesses through the application process. That way, you're that much more prepared for the next one... knowing what you can try do to better next time around.

None of this is meant to outline what you, Rusty, need to do to fix your situation. I'm just citing general stuff here I've picked up in my own research for job searching and career shifting hoping folks will find some hing helpful in there.

Here are some common things people overlook that lose them interviews:

1) Grammar and typos on your resume - Not all sentences on a resume are complete sentences, but make sure that they make sense. Definitely check for typos. Also, fancy graphics and decorative paper don't usually impress folks, unless you're applying for a job where graphic design may come into play.

2) Applying for jobs they're not really qualified for - Folks don't take a hard look at whether or not they really fit the bill. A person that is not mechanically inclined is not going to make a good automotive repairman, no matter how much they like cars or whatever.

3) Overselling or underselling skills - Sell yourself short and you look like someone that's not confident enough for someone to want to hire. Oversell yourself and you look arrogant and even dishonest.

4) Inappropriate attire - Basically, almost any interview merits a suit if you have it.. at the very least a shirt, tie, slacks, and dress shoes and socks. Even a "McJob" merits dressing to impress.

5) "McJob" mentality or the "I'll take anything with a paycheck" - No one wants to hire someone that figures a job is beneath them or is simply something to tide them over. That's just an instant formula for a disgruntled employee, and businesses want happy employees. Sure, McDonald's isn't an ideal job for most people... but, even if you're not keen on it, or are grasping at straws for a paycheck... you have to convince the interviewer that you want to work THERE for THEM. Even if it's complete BS (don't get too carried away), convey to the interviewer why you want to work for McDonalds. Don't say "Well, I'm desperate enough that I'll try just about anything at this point." You might as well end the interview there. Say something like "Well, I'm working toward a career in (X), which is going to involve a fair bit of interaction with the public. I feel that the environment here at McDonald's will expose me to many different kinds of customers, and help me to refine my ability to achieve customer satisfaction with each and every transaction." Or, say you hope to be a gourmet chef someday.. you could say "The energized pace (always use "happy" words to describe something that may not be the most positive... "energized" instead of "hectic," etc.) in the kitchen here at McDonald's would be a great learning envrionment for my aspirations of becoming a gourmet chef."

6) "What's in it for me" attitude - Of course, as with the line above, a person expects to get experience out of a job. But a company doesn't want to know what they can do for you. They want to know what you can do for it. So, going back to the McJob.. don't dwell on what you hope to get out of it. Conveying your aspirations can help give the interviewer a sense of the big picture that is you.. but you also have to let them know what you're going to bring to the table that is unique. What could you do for McDonald's that some pimply-faced high school student couldn't? "Well, in my previous jobs, I've had a lot of interaction with the public. I'm committed to customer service, and have the ability to remain pleasant, even when a customer may be very difficult. I'm there to serve them, and will do everything in my power to see that their dining experience is a pleasant one." or "When I'm working at the grill, I want each burger to be one that I would want to eat. I'm committed to getting the customer their order in a timely fashion, but also making sure their food is well-prepared, so they'll want to come back again and again. Even if they can't see my face back in the kitchen, I can still give them service with a smile."

So, these are just some general areas people tend to fall short on during applications.. nothing specific to anyone here.. but maybe there's something helpful in there.

In retrospect, the utterance of "deal with it" is pretty condescending.. but it's often more from a tough love standpoint than simple contempt. If you really look at the exchanges where that's used, however, you often see... not a situation where one person is looking for answers, and another offering unrealistic, "magical" solutions.... but where one person is offering ideas for solutions, and the other is offering excuses. By the time you often get to the "deal with it" stage of a conversation, typically the person saying that has determined... correctly or in error... that the person they're saying it to really doesn't want to do what it takes to solve their problem - they just want to make excuses that absolve them of responsibility for their situation. By the time someone says "deal with it," they're probably often of the mindset of "Okay, I tried giving you some answers, but you're just not listening.. so I'm gonna say something blunt and insensitive to try and snap you out of your cycle of self-pity and apathy." Sometimes such an approach is merited..sometimes not.

I guess from what you've described of your situation, I won't stick with the "deal with it" route. I'll just say not to give up on yourself. It may be a tough road, but it's not impassable.