Crush...Yiff...Destroy!

DA · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 320

Just wondering what is with some furry artists that the minute they get any sort of popularity deserved or not they seem to turn into utter assholes unless you're worshipping them.

Over the last year I've been repeatedly had to deal with the asshole artists trying to drag me down, I'm amazed at some of the stuff they've tried to pull on me, grade school seems adult in comparision.

So thoughts? Does furry short circuit the dealing with popularity nicely part of the brain or something?

Rankin · Coadjutor Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 488

Generally, Yes.

An artist finds fans, feels loved. Fans ask more and more of artist. Artist does it out of love. Fans ask for more, for free. Artist gets a bit miffed. Fans demand more, and question artist's ability. Artist gets cranky. Artist starts to think all folks just want them for their ability.

Most of my artistic friends are fucked in the head and hate others - It's our common bond. ;)

The_Censorship_Nazi · Rasophore Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 59

Well, that's a big reason why I'm trying to keep my ego deflated at all costs, and keep a cool head about me. I'd rather NOT become a stereotype.

One way to do that is not to draw just furry art, I feel. I also do a number of landscapes, vehicle designs, and I've even dabbled a little bit in comic design. I feel versatility is one vital key to being an artist...

You can disagree with me if you wish, of course. I don't mind debate and constructive criticism.

Charisma · Coadjutor Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 158

One way to do that is not to draw just furry art, I feel. I also do a number of landscapes, vehicle designs, and I've even dabbled a little bit in comic design. I feel versatility is one vital key to being an artist...

I've heard this said to some people that JUST do furry art (online anyway) and they justify that by saying that they're not trying to get a career out of it so they draw what they want.
Whereas on the otherhand art is my life and I need to constantly improve in every area I can. So yeah I agree with you.

The people that just draw furry art for fun are probably more likely to be in it to gain friends and popularity online too.

DA · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 320

One way to do that is not to draw just furry art, I feel. I also do a number of landscapes, vehicle designs, and I've even dabbled a little bit in comic design. I feel versatility is one vital key to being an artist...

You can disagree with me if you wish, of course. I don't mind debate and constructive criticism.

I agree, during the last five hours I've drawn at least seven different subjects including a landscape. I enjoy a wide variety of different arts and subjects and I must concur that most of the asshole artists only seem to draw one thing.

Paul · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Feb 2004 Posts: 138

Just wondering what is with some furry artists that the minute they get any sort of popularity deserved or not they seem to turn into utter assholes unless you're worshipping them.

I think Charisma hit the head on the nail here:

The people that just draw furry art for fun are probably more likely to be in it to gain friends and popularity online too.

For most of the "asshole artists", the art is a means to an end: to gain online friends and get praised. To make those friends and get that praise they'll draw what people ask them to, and risk entering the downward spiral Rankin described, and then become cranky when the friends and praise aren't flowing freely anymore.

For any person with a "real" artistic inclination, the art is an end in itself, and while it's never fun to have someone talk bad about your art, it doesn't really matter, because those artists do it for themselves, basically. They also have a desire to constantly improve themselves. Some of these artists might choose to focus on just one subject, but the desire for artistic growth is still there, and will distinguish them from the popularity-seekers.

It's noteworthy how many "furry" artists seem never to develop their skills beyond a certain level - for them there's no point, as long as they get pats on the back at the next furry con.

DA · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 320

For any person with a "real" artistic inclination, the art is an end in itself, and while it's never fun to have someone talk bad about your art, it doesn't really matter, because those artists do it for themselves, basically. They also have a desire to constantly improve themselves. Some of these artists might choose to focus on just one subject, but the desire for artistic growth is still there, and will distinguish them from the popularity-seekers.

It's noteworthy how many "furry" artists seem never to develop their skills beyond a certain level - for them there's no point, as long as they get pats on the back at the next furry con.

Where the hell do I fall then? I do draw for myself but I also enjoy seeing other people enjoy my work, I frequently drop freebies for friends who ask because I enjoy pleasing them though I don't bend over backwards totally, if I don't have the time I'll say no.

I tend to be very protective of my art, nobody trashes it, constructive criticism or just saying you don't like it I can handle but when people start getting nasty and calling it 'shitty' I don't tend to be very polite back.

I enjoy artistic growth but I also work hard because I like being told that my work looks good, also I feel that I must improve because that's what artists do.

I seem to fall somewhere between attention seekers and 'real' artists....mind you I'm swinging more towards 'real' artistry with each day.

The_Censorship_Nazi · Rasophore Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 59

Actually, what you're feeling is not uncommon. You and I are in the same boat - I draw for myself and for other people. I enjoy knowing that people like my art, but I also seek assistance from other artists to improve my skills, and take criticism I get and use it to improve myself.

If it's not too much to ask, though - may I see some of your artwork, please?

Paul · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Feb 2004 Posts: 138

Where the hell do I fall then? I do draw for myself but I also enjoy seeing other people enjoy my work, I frequently drop freebies for friends who ask because I enjoy pleasing them though I don't bend over backwards totally, if I don't have the time I'll say no.

I tend to be very protective of my art, nobody trashes it, constructive criticism or just saying you don't like it I can handle but when people start getting nasty and calling it 'shitty' I don't tend to be very polite back.

I enjoy artistic growth but I also work hard because I like being told that my work looks good, also I feel that I must improve because that's what artists do.

I take back the bit about someone talking bad about your art not mattering, because other people's opinions do matter, at least to some extent. Wanting to get praised for what you do is a very basic human desire; we all want to be loved, right? Working to improve your art is not contrary to seeking popularity for that art. A "real" artist can very well be a big attention-seeker. But if you do art solely for getting praise, then the core of creativity, the artistic drive, is amiss, and any negative comments will hit harder, thus producing the "asshole artist".

DA · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 320

The_Censorship_Nazi> my website link leads directly to my deviantart gallery, with my doodles, I haven't put anything 'finished' up yet as I'm still practicing.

Criticism on my doodling is very welcome :)

But if you do art solely for getting praise, then the core of creativity, the artistic drive, is amiss, and any negative comments will hit harder, thus producing the "asshole artist".

Yes but some of the ones who do it for attention would still argue they do it because they enjoy drawing. I know one artist who doesn't want to know people unless they're kissing her butt, she would probably say she does it for the art but I think she just likes the lavished attention, hence her attention whoring every time someon 'steals' her work. It's hard to tell sometimes whether a person is doing it for praise or not.

Paul · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Feb 2004 Posts: 138

A few thoughts... Like ZenZhu pointed out in another thread, much of the praise that furries lavish upon furry artists is nothing more than "OH WOW YOU'RE THE BEST" or "I LOVE YOUR ART" or, if negative, "YOU SUCK". It's totally unqualified criticism that very often comes off as an assessment of the person rather than the art, which of course adds injury to insult if it's negative. And as we all know here, a lot of furries tend to be surprisingly sensitive. Hmm... young people usually take criticism more personally than older people; artistic types are often more sensitive than people are most; so add the young person who likes to draw for attention up with all the fucked-up-ness and fursecution complexes found in a lot of furries and you've got a triple whammy for wanting to have their butts kissed and being very angry when they don't get it.

ZenZhu · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 475

Given that many of these furs we see drawing to have their butts kissed these days are teenybopper ravergothfurs, it's unsurprising that their ilk are not capable of discussing texture, line quality, saturation, and other things like this, as that requires thought, insight, and ed-joo-muh-kay-shun.... the kind of stuff that a lot of typical teens these days don't want to be bothered with. It almost suggests that a lot of the young furs are not so much people that are really not among peers in their own age group because of intelligence or maturity, but that are just a hair off of the mainstream.... kind of like the kids that are all dolled up in their most Marilyn Mansonesque clothing, but are really not any different than the masses of teen zombies in anything other than their mode of dress.

Maybe I'm just charging at windmills here, but it seems like those of us familiar with furrydom but are older, early 30s or so on average, experienced a bit of social dysphoria as kids because we were "brains." We could discuss art in terms of how it was produced, line quality and weight, the use of the abilities and limitations of a medium and such. When we said "Whoa.. that's cool." it wasn't simply because that was the only utterance we were capable of, but among the people we knew, that translated to "I like the picture, the composition, the shading, etc.".. and usually could lead more into what it was we liked and didn't like.

Now, though, with the kind of kids that are becoming furries, "It's cool." translates basically to "I like it.. don't know why, and I really don't want to exert the brain power to figure it out, because that's school stuff."

Charisma · Coadjutor Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 158

A few thoughts... Like ZenZhu pointed out in another thread, much of the praise that furries lavish upon furry artists is nothing more than "OH WOW YOU'RE THE BEST" or "I LOVE YOUR ART" or, if negative, "YOU SUCK". It's totally unqualified criticism that very often comes off as an assessment of the person rather than the art, which of course adds injury to insult if it's negative. And as we all know here, a lot of furries tend to be surprisingly sensitive. Hmm... young people usually take criticism more personally than older people; artistic types are often more sensitive than people are most; so add the young person who likes to draw for attention up with all the fucked-up-ness and fursecution complexes found in a lot of furries and you've got a triple whammy for wanting to have their butts kissed and being very angry when they don't get it.

I've been talking about this alot recently. Me and my mate are both on Deviant Art and we hate all those comments that just say "thats cool", "great job" etc. One day she decided it'd be funny to crit people intensely, wether they liked it or not! Funny times to be had indeed

DA · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 320

Fun times indeed, I once gave a crit to a furry on Deviantart, he got snitty and tried to give me one back to hurt me :roll: woulda helped if he knew what he was talking about... :twisted:

Gotta love constructive crit, I need a big banner begging for it on my page, I'm sick of the 'cute' comments.

Charisma · Coadjutor Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 158

Gotta love constructive crit, I need a big banner begging for it on my page, I'm sick of the 'cute' comments.

That's not a bad idea actually....
I don't put my work up just to show-off, I want/need the advice

The_Censorship_Nazi · Rasophore Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 59

Well Charisma, give me the URL to your art and I'll see what I can do about it! ^_^

As for you, DA...your artwork is nice, I feel. I notice a number of gargoyle images, and like a lot of gargoyle images I see online, these have been strongly influenced by the "Gargoyles" tv show of the mid-90s. That's not to say it's a bad thing, the style for those gargoyles was pretty solid. Still, it WOULD be rather nice to see a different style for gargoyles instead of just the same cartoon style.

You seem to draw heads in a slightly American/Japanese blend, with the structure of an anime head but the facial features of an American head. You have been exploring some degree of facial expression, which is good, but I think you could do with a little more observation of faces - exaggerating them for emotional effect. A good way to practice this is to watch movies and notice the faces there.

Your bodies and proportions on the whole are good, although in some pictures I noticed you put more importance on getting the pose right than the proportions right. There's nothing wrong with that, but it does make the end product look a little strange. I do like, however, that you're exploring more varied body types - the panda girl you drew, for instance, is a nice, plump body type that's far more normal but nevertheless avoided a lot in a lot of artwork I've seen. The mere fact that you've even done one picture like that is admirable.

Also, your poses are nice - sometimes rather static, but I've noticed you're trying to loosen them up some more, like in the "Fancy Dress" picture. You're also experimenting with some very complex and fluid designs, such as the "old dragon" picture, which has a long, sineous dragon body. Still, I think you could stand to experiment with some more dynamic poses, like for action scenes. It's not absolutely necessary - a lot of classical painters never really did anything about action, see - but it's still a nice thing to learn.

Overall, I think you've done pretty well in your artwork. You do have a ways to go, but I'd say you're on the right path, whichever one you choose. Keep up the good work, DA!

Kadius · Coadjutor Joined: 10 Feb 2004 Posts: 147

Well, when dealing with artists, especially on DeviantArt. You're going to run into these things.

1.) Blatant art thieves. They may even claim it's their own until they get banned from a site. (Seen this happen twice.)

2.) Awful artists that're extremely popular. (NightKrawler, anyone?)

3.) People that draw nothing but smut and have a cult following of sickos waiting for the next incredibly revulting pic to get off to. (Think Return World or, again; NightKrawler. )

4.) The artist with an ego, they're like; so great! 'Kiss my ass, peasant. I > you.'

5.) The super angsty, 'life-is-so-hard, I hate you all' teenagers who like to draw nothing but disembowled characters crying with poems about death/sadness.

6.) Artists that have problems, and do nothing but brag about them because they think it's 'cool' and 'deep'. "I drew this last night after I almost cut my wrists (Optional:again).."

7.) The asshole artists who do nothing but leave harsh comments, no matter how the quality of the art is, or relevantness of their critique. And bites your head off when you say one small thing about their own work.

8.) Political nuts. ie Jay Naylor, 'nuff said.

9.) And extremely rare, Humble artist. They don't care about gaining popularity, heck, they don't care if you comment on their art. They just smile and are glad you liked it. Or think you for your critique. (if not from a #7)

Of course, there are many cominations of these. But that's all I care to write right now. :mrgreen:

ZenZhu · Coadjutor Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 475

Fun times indeed, I once gave a crit to a furry on Deviantart, he got snitty and tried to give me one back to hurt me :roll: woulda helped if he knew what he was talking about... :twisted:

Gotta love constructive crit, I need a big banner begging for it on my page, I'm sick of the 'cute' comments.

There's a thought.. someone putting an invitation for comments, but stating that comments like "It's cute" or "You RAWK" are discouraged.

DA · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 320

That's not a bad idea actually....
I don't put my work up just to show-off, I want/need the advice

I'll drop by sometime and give you a few crits if you don't mind ;)

The_censorship_nazi>Thank you, I did indeed start out in the gargoyles fandom though I'm trying to branch out more, I start lifedrawing in september, my local college is finally offering it :) I try to avoid the 'perfect' bodies so many other artists do just because they are so blase, I'm still playing with my proportions and most of my stuff is drawn blind without reference so I definitely need to start referencing more.

I've been experimenting with action as a matter of fact but most of the trials haven't made their way on DA as I don't find them to be good enough though I have a couple of nice ones in the works now :)

My foreshortening especially looks weird but I'm working on it.

Charisma · Coadjutor Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 158

I'll drop by sometime and give you a few crits if you don't mind ;)

Well Charisma, give me the URL to your art and I'll see what I can do about it! ^_^

Well, thanks a lot! I'd rather link you to something new though. I haven't drawn anything not to do with college for a couple of months now and I have a feeling my art will be a lot different next time I put pencil to paper after looking at so much art and not drawing for such a long time.
I'll link you later on when I've got something worth while ;)

Genghis · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 186

The thing you need to remember about a lot of these artists is that they believe the phrase "constructive criticism" refers to building up their ego - hence all the artists who scream about how they only want constructive criticism are perfectly happy with "WHOA ITS AWESOME =^_^=" comments but flip a lid when someone is actually honest with them.

Paul · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Feb 2004 Posts: 138

The thing you need to remember about a lot of these artists is that they believe the phrase "constructive criticism" refers to building up their ego - hence all the artists who scream about how they only want constructive criticism are perfectly happy with "WHOA ITS AWESOME =^_^=" comments but flip a lid when someone is actually honest with them.

True. The "asshole artists" probably really don't want criticism, constructive or non-constructive, of their art, they want to be told how awesome and god-like they are as persons. Even a positive constructive critique of a picture they've drawn will fall short of the kind of praise they want: mindless adulation.

DA · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 320

XD if anyone cares to go to my DA page and read my latest journal they can follow the fun I'm having with a 'artist' on DA, all I did was give her advice...

Fins · Qualificator Joined: 19 Dec 2003 Posts: 25

Ahh... don't ya just love how every furry's an expert who's entitled to critique other people's art whether they ask for it or not? Especially when those critiques are based around personal tastes and not real issues like anatomy or technique? Please keep the crits on the crit sites/forums, folks. Otherwise you're just contributing to the problem IMHO.

DA · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 320

If people post it, I'll crit it, I've never had a bad response to mine aside from a few furry's going 'omg ur mean, if u don like mai art, don look' when I fail to tell them it's perfect.

I don't bring personal preferences into it, I give good solid advice on anatomy when I can.

CrazyBomber · Apocrisiary Joined: 15 Sep 2003 Posts: 41

I used to draw and write, but I quited from drawing a while ago.
Now I just have to end that story for closing my "career" as a "writer".

If somebody would like to see some of my art, just click the "www" tab.

The_Censorship_Nazi · Rasophore Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 59

Hmmmm...well, I took a look at your artwork, CrazyBomber, and not to be insulting or anything, but I can see why you stopped. I don't mean this personally, but...well, it's not very good. Anatomy's not so great, heads seem a mess, poses stiff, etc...

If you do want to start again in the future, of course, I would recommend finding some art instruction first. It might make a big difference.

CrazyBomber · Apocrisiary Joined: 15 Sep 2003 Posts: 41

I knew from the begining that I'm not so good at drawing, The_Censorship_Nazi. And is very improbable to start drawing again in the future.
Beign threatened with a lawsuit is a very strong incentive to quit drawing forever, The_Censorship_Nazi...