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Bill Holbrook gone the way of the furries?
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ZenZhu
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Posted: 6/29/2004 2:19:20 PM     Post subject: Bill Holbrook gone the way of the furries?  

I've been a regular reader of Kevin and Kell for a few years now. I've always considered it one of those anthropomorphic strips that was relatively non-furry, despite its appeal with the furries. Bill Holbrook, the creator, however, seems to be getting more and more into this whole furry thing. This first news item was.. interesting. I wouldn't think someone familiar with the stigma of furrydom would be so pleased with this, but.... <shrug>.

Week of June 14, 2004 (Posted at 2004-06-13 12:45:03)
I'm delighted to announce that "Kevin & Kell" has won the Ursa Major Award for Best Anthropomorphic Comic Strip. This award is the Anthropomorphic (a.k.a. Furry) Fandom's equivalent of s-f fandom's Hugo Awards, mystery fandom's Anthony Awards (of which my wife Teri has been nominated several times), horror fandom's Bram Stoker Awards, and so forth. The Ursa Majors are administered and presented by the Anthropomorphic Literature and Arts Association (ALAA), an organization dedicated to promoting anthropomorphic literature and arts both within and outside of the fandom. Its website is at http://www.ursamajorawards.org/.

As I've never been to a con, I've never met the guy. Maybe some of you who have crossed paths with him... or at least seen him across the room at a Waffle House or something, can shed some light on if he's getting sucked in by them, or if he's just networking with a portion of his target audience to make an easy buck. Anyway, this next part is amusing as it sounds like your typical furry M.O.

The bad news? Well, I know things are tough all over. The past few years have been particularly harsh on "Kevin & Kell's" core audience in the tech field. We've seen drastic, marked decreases in support across the board, which is understandable in an uncertain economy. For those of you who have already contributed, or have preordered the next book collection, I thank you. You've already done your part. Now I'm deputizing you to find more people to become Kell's Angels and hopefully to also support the strip. Please spread the word! For those of you who haven't yet contributed, any kind of support, any amount, no matter how small, is sincerely appreciated.

I'm definitely not screaming "FURRY IFIDEL!" and rejecting his strip or anything. I still view it as a non-furry anthropomorphic comic. And I won't fault anyone for milking furries for every cent they'll blindly shell out. I'm curious if anyone has similar or contrasting observations on Holbrook's apparent increasing involvement with furry fandom.
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Michael Hirtes
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Posted: 6/29/2004 6:27:03 PM     Post subject: Re: Bill Holbrook gone the way of the furries?  

I'm more disturbed by the fact that Trace "Dr. Forrester of MST3K" Beaulieu was a GoH at a recent furry con.

http://www.mst3kinfo.com/satnews/megaplex/index.html

This quote is truly suspicious:

I had my first chance to meet Trace Beaulieu at a Sheraton hotel in sunny Orlando, Florida. Dubbed the "PawPet Megaplex," the offbeat conference assembled puppeteers as well as professional and amateur mascots from Florida and from as far away as Great Britain and the West Coast of the U.S.


Okay, I might be able to understand why they invited Trace because of the puppeteering angle (I guess the rates for Triumph The Comic-Insult Dog to be GoH were too steep), but to candycoat a furrycon under the disguise of it being a "gathering of professional and amateur mascots" is wrong. I think that in this day & age when furrydumb has been getting bad press in the mass media, that the furries feel the need to put the truth in a full-Nelsen in order to sucker the hotels into allowing sick fondlefests to take place on their property.

"Elevator-defiling retards with a mean streak? Oh, nonononononono! We are just a humble bunch of professional and amateur mascots who simply want to have a place to be together."
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mouse
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Posted: 6/29/2004 8:28:04 PM     Post subject: Re: Bill Holbrook gone the way of the furries?  

I'm definitely not screaming "FURRY IFIDEL!" and rejecting his strip or anything. I still view it as a non-furry anthropomorphic comic. And I won't fault anyone for milking furries for every cent they'll blindly shell out. I'm curious if anyone has similar or contrasting observations on Holbrook's apparent increasing involvement with furry fandom.


Who actually thinks they can make money in furry fandom? You woudl think people would learn by now. might make a small amount but Im sure a regular (good) job would be better.

And suppose Bill Holbrook actually doesn't care about furry fandoms reputation. He goes to the cons all the time, I know that much. What if he becomes more of a 'furry' and doesnt even change his comic strip, you gonna suddenly pull the old "uhm...well...gee, I never really liked the strip that much anyway" just because you don't want to be caught looking at something that certain people might associate with furry fandom (even remotely)?
Isnt Kevin and Kell syndicated in newspaper, anyway? What difference does it make if he ends up 'going native', it only matters if the comic strip suffers.


(I never have, and probably never will read Kevin and Kell)
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ZenZhu
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Posted: 6/29/2004 10:40:57 PM     Post subject: Re: Bill Holbrook gone the way of the furries?  

And suppose Bill Holbrook actually doesn't care about furry fandoms reputation. He goes to the cons all the time, I know that much. What if he becomes more of a 'furry' and doesnt even change his comic strip, you gonna suddenly pull the old "uhm...well...gee, I never really liked the strip that much anyway" just because you don't want to be caught looking at something that certain people might associate with furry fandom (even remotely)?

Well, if you'll go back and read the words in my post and let the actual meaning of them filter in, you can probably see the answer to your question is a no, followed by a resounding "Duh."


"Nice, Ah say, nice boyah, but about as sharp as a bowlin' ball."
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creature
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Posted: 6/30/2004 9:14:16 AM     Post subject:  

Holbrook is a business man, simple as that. He's done what few have, rung money out of the furry fandom.

He was invited to Memphis Furmeet and made a killing selling his books, so ever since he has been going back and I think he has even been to Anthrocon. Eitherway, because of that the Plan 9 people set up at pretty much every furry con out there.
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mouse
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Posted: 6/30/2004 8:26:28 PM     Post subject:  

All I was trying to say was that Bill Holbrook is an educated adult capable of making informed decisions. I doubt he is getting sucked into anything, further more I wouldnt be shocked to learn that he IS aware of the fucked up parts of furry fandom. He goes to cons as Creature pointed out, he is there for his own reasons - to sell his books. I also highly doubt he is being abusive about it either (as in, just trying to get his money and fuck everyone who gave him that money)

If he is...well, I really have zero respect for any artist who pisses on thier fans - whether they like them or not. Again, I doubt thats the case seeing as how it seems he appreciated getting the Ursa Major award.
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ZenZhu
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Posted: 6/30/2004 10:29:05 PM     Post subject:  

That's the sense I've gotten from his write-ups; he has a kind of gleefulness about the accolades he's received at Antrhocon and such. I'm sure he's aware of furrydom's underbelly, but maybe manages to stay removed from it enough to not care about it.
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Rankin
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Posted: 7/1/2004 4:21:58 AM     Post subject:  

That's the sense I've gotten from his write-ups; he has a kind of gleefulness about the accolades he's received at Antrhocon and such. I'm sure he's aware of furrydom's underbelly, but maybe manages to stay removed from it enough to not care about it.


If he can manage to recycle the same joke day after day - which he has, I'm sure he's figured how to get his finger on the pulse of the fandom.

Then again, I was tired of his shit after under a week. Only Shmorky's stuff kept me amused more than a day - and he's, uhm... "better"?
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Shmorky
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Posted: 7/1/2004 9:28:13 AM     Post subject:  

Holbrook is a business man, simple as that. He's done what few have, rung money out of the furry fandom.

He was invited to Memphis Furmeet and made a killing selling his books, so ever since he has been going back and I think he has even been to Anthrocon. Eitherway, because of that the Plan 9 people set up at pretty much every furry con out there.


That's pretty much what I thought... and that's how I feel about most syndicated cartoonists.
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Computolio
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Posted: 7/1/2004 7:27:27 PM     Post subject:  

That comic sucked so bad I always thought it was furry.
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21st Century Digital Boy
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Posted: 7/1/2004 10:27:22 PM     Post subject:  

Holbrook, shmolbrook, I'm more worried about Michel Gagne, who's already mentioned browsing Yerf somewhere on his site, and drew up flyers for at least one Anthrocon. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy to get sucked up into the raging maelstrom of pathetic that is the furry fandom, and I don't foresee him doing hyperphallicbabyfurmacrovoreskunktaur commishions any time in the near or distant future, but still, it's pretty disconcerting.
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Paul
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Posted: 7/1/2004 11:14:46 PM     Post subject:  

Holbrook, shmolbrook, I'm more worried about Michel Gagne, who's already mentioned browsing Yerf somewhere on his site, and drew up flyers for at least one Anthrocon. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy to get sucked up into the raging maelstrom of pathetic that is the furry fandom, and I don't foresee him doing hyperphallicbabyfurmacrovoreskunktaur commishions any time in the near or distant future, but still, it's pretty disconcerting.

Well, Gagné's GoH at this year's Anthrocon along with Stan Sakai, so I guess it's not so odd if he's done some artwork for the con. Like others have pointed out above, some artists simply have some part of their audience among furries, and they treat them like they would any other fan: show up at book signings, make drawings for the fans, etc. I see no problem in that.

I don't know anything about Gagné, but what I do know about Sakai says he is not even remotely connected to anything "furry"; he's just way too cool and laid-back for that. But heck, even if it did turn out that he drew skunkhermtaur porn under the pseudonym BASF, so what? It doesn't influence Usagi Yojimbo.

The furries that do bother me are those fucktards that can't keep their fucked-up-ness in private, and those artists that cater to said fucked-up-ness. I'm well aware that such a place as Anthrocon to a certain extent caters to these deluded dipwads, but that doesn't mean good artists like Sakai can't or shouldn't sell their books there.
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mouse
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Posted: 7/2/2004 6:42:14 AM     Post subject:  

Like others have pointed out above, some artists simply have some part of their audience among furries, and they treat them like they would any other fan: show up at book signings, make drawings for the fans, etc. I see no problem in that.


Way I see it, is if for ex. you play punk rock-like music, you are going to have punk fans. If you do cartoon animals, you are going to have fans that land within the boundaries of 'furry fandom'. Doesn't mean they are pricks/insane/whatever.

I just have a very serious problem with any artist (movies,music,art,comics,...any trade or craft for that matter) who developes rock star syndrome.

I don't know anything about Gagné,


Again, who cares. Gagne is who he is. Im not shocked at all that people can ignore the fucked up parts of furry fandom (or even just what they don't like) and take what they like from it...gee, thats what I've done instinctually for a little over a year now.

but what I do know about Sakai says he is not even remotely connected to anything "furry"; he's just way too cool and laid-back for that. But heck, even if it did turn out that he drew skunkhermtaur porn under the pseudonym BASF, so what? It doesn't influence Usagi Yojimbo.

The furries that do bother me are those fucktards that can't keep their fucked-up-ness in private, and those artists that cater to said fucked-up-ness. I'm well aware that such a place as Anthrocon to a certain extent caters to these deluded dipwads, but that doesn't mean good artists like Sakai can't or shouldn't sell their books there.


Well, Stan Sakai has ties back to the early days, as do many artist who use cartoon animals a lot. Most of it goes back to Fantagraphics it seems.

But other than that, everything else you said...EXACTLY.

There are also a bunch of spineless hack columnists out there that didn't feel like commending or even mentioning Usagi Yojimbo simply because it was a funny-animal comic, and also that it may have been 'furry'. Thats really the only mindset that I am defiantly, 110% against. I can't really understand it. If its good, its good, if it aint, it aint. And fuck public opinion. Its like some pussy DJ that will kiss ass on any band that sells records, and flip-flop on thier opinion depending on whats going on.
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Paul
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Posted: 7/3/2004 11:00:25 PM     Post subject:  

Well, Stan Sakai has ties back to the early days, as do many artist who use cartoon animals a lot. Most of it goes back to Fantagraphics it seems.

From what I've read on CYD and elsewhere, furry fandom basically started in the early 80s, with Steve Gallacci's Albedo as one of the focus points. Usagi Yojimbo debuted in Albedo no. 2, of course, but Sakai quickly moved on to Fantagraphics, and that company's only tie with the fandom seems to be the publication of some titles that may have had lots of furry buyers (apart from Usagi Yojimbo, mainly Critters). But Fantagraphics didn't seem to actually direct products toward furries in the way that, say, Radio Comix does. Kim Thompson, who edited all Fantagraphics' "animal" titles, very clearly wanted to do "funny animal" books, not "furry" books.

There are also a bunch of spineless hack columnists out there that didn't feel like commending or even mentioning Usagi Yojimbo simply because it was a funny-animal comic, and also that it may have been 'furry'. Thats really the only mindset that I am defiantly, 110% against. I can't really understand it. If its good, its good, if it aint, it aint. And fuck public opinion. Its like some pussy DJ that will kiss ass on any band that sells records, and flip-flop on thier opinion depending on whats going on.

Hmm, that's too bad. Usagi Yojimbo is a great comic, period. But I do belive the good works somewhat embraced by the fandom manage to escape that grasp and find an audience elsewhere. As it's been discussed before, most people who are interested in "anthropomorphics" aren't furries, they're just people who like to read a good story/watch a good cartoon or whatever, and if it happens to have animal characters in it, either that's just fine, or they might think it's an added little bonus because they like that idea. If some columnists won't write about a funny-animal comic because of the reputation of the furry fandom, that's just more proof how fucked-up the fandom has become.

BTW, speaking of Albedo - does anyone know what Gallacci's doing these days? I used to read Albedo, liked it a lot, but stopped buying it what with its increasingly erratic publishing schedule. Google searches only yield old hat info.
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mouse
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Posted: 7/4/2004 1:06:46 AM     Post subject:  

From what I've read on CYD and elsewhere, furry fandom basically started in the early 80s, with Steve Gallacci's Albedo as one of the focus points. Usagi Yojimbo debuted in Albedo no. 2, of course, but Sakai quickly moved on to Fantagraphics, and that company's only tie with the fandom seems to be the publication of some titles that may have had lots of furry buyers (apart from Usagi Yojimbo, mainly Critters). But Fantagraphics didn't seem to actually direct products toward furries in the way that, say, Radio Comix does. Kim Thompson, who edited all Fantagraphics' "animal" titles, very clearly wanted to do "funny animal" books, not "furry" books.



Well, theres a couple things going on here. First, at that time period there was a less cohesive group. Fury would have been 'fans of anthropomorphics' Now furry...its still a fucking mess, but its 'there'. We are talking about social constructs here, not physical clubs. And what 'furry' is by thier own definitions is vague. I like cartoon animals/funny animals and I hang around furry fandom. Thats mainly because I don't give a fuck, and its going to take more than a large handful of perverts to scare me off.

Anyway, some of the people that contributed to Critters, were Steve Gallacci, Stan Sakai, J.P. Morgan, Mike Kazaleh - they were involved with furry fandom.

People who were kind of outside of that were like Scott Shaw! and Ken Mitchrooney. Although Mitchrooney was, for a very little while, involved with furry fandom. He ran off because , as far as I gather he didnt even like PG-13 rated funny animals. He says he isn't a prude...but I think he kind of is. Anyway he hangs out (apperently) around Kulture Shoq studios, was friends with Ed "Big Daddy" Roth, Moldy Marvin and all them.

All these people know each other though. Some of them were involved in fandom more than others. A bunch of these people became more professional and with moving aroudn I think they simply didnt have time to be involved in fan activites. Kazaleh and Mitchrooney do all kinds of animation projects. I've read Kazaleh just likes to draw his funny animals, and I'm sure he wanted to share these people, so he made a few comics that would really only sell to fans of "cartoon animals" portfolio's etc.

Almost all of Kazaleh's personal comics were commercial flops, but I think its some of the best comics I've read, so fuck everyone else :)

As it's been discussed before, most people who are interested in "anthropomorphics" aren't furries, they're just people who like to read a good story/watch a good cartoon or whatever, and if it happens to have animal characters in it, either that's just fine, or they might think it's an added little bonus because they like that idea. If some columnists won't write about a funny-animal comic because of the reputation of the furry fandom, that's just more proof how fucked-up the fandom has become.


You right it is proof of that...but it irks me that the people who have the most sway over public opinion - instead cater to it. Its pathetic. I have more respect for someone who says what they want to say, than someone who just praises the people they are "supposed to".


BTW, speaking of Albedo - does anyone know what Gallacci's doing these days? I used to read Albedo, liked it a lot, but stopped buying it what with its increasingly erratic publishing schedule. Google searches only yield old hat info.


A new volume of Albedo (5, I think) is coming out thru Shanda soon...It might even be premeiring at Anthrocon. Gallacci wrote it, and I think Shawntae Howard drew it. Gallacci still posts to AFF occassionally and the Albedo Yahoo group. I think he is on Yerf as well.
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viron
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Posted: 7/4/2004 5:34:23 AM     Post subject: Re: Bill Holbrook gone the way of the furries?  

I'm more disturbed by the fact that Trace "Dr. Forrester of MST3K" Beaulieu was a GoH at a recent furry con.


I don't know much about megaplex, but someone on their staff described it to me once as 'less of a furry con and more of a puppet/performance con'.

if that's what it is, i won't try to convince myself they are just another group of asshole furries. I've only seen the pawpet show maybe once or twice, but IMO theyv'e never done anything perverted, disgusted, or insane except perhaps for being a horribly boring show with incredibly bad taste and a few funny moments.

If people want to gather as anthro fans and try to keep the "horrible furry" angle to a minimum, I am all for it. Anyone trying to validate the hobby and not pervert it is good in my book. Gives me hope for places like c-ace and such. If furry fandom behaved itself like those 2 cons claim to behave, maybe it wouldn't be the shitfest it is now. *thinks about the good old days*

Of course, me not having gone to either con doesn't give me any authority to defend them, because i dont' know if they really are deviant sexfests in disguise, but I have to applaud them trying to stay away from the bad parts of furry. as far as i know.
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Wayd Wolf
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Posted: 7/4/2004 4:01:53 PM     Post subject:  

There are certain rabid Pawpet fans who've become almost a secret police unto themselves in their own minds, ready to spread nastiness about any furs who dare to criticize Pawpet openly, doing their damndest to get such different thinkers ostracized. The Pawpet people if not actively contributing to this, do absolutely nothing to discourage this. I know more than one fur who's been essentially done-in socially by these deranged assholes.

Just another example of how furries more often than not become the schmucks they accuse the world of being.
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Rankin
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Posted: 7/4/2004 4:13:27 PM     Post subject:  

There are certain rabid Pawpet fans who've become almost a secret police unto themselves in their own minds, ready to spread nastiness about any furs who dare to criticize Pawpet openly, doing their damndest to get such different thinkers ostracized.


This, I've heard and witnessed first hand as a rather good puppeteer I know was unable to make FC and said some less-than disparaging things about some Pawpet functions. Lo and behold, they were not asked, and actively dissuaded from attending any future functions.
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Paul
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Posted: 7/4/2004 6:30:47 PM     Post subject:  

Well, theres a couple things going on here. First, at that time period there was a less cohesive group. Fury would have been 'fans of anthropomorphics' Now furry...its still a fucking mess, but its 'there'. We are talking about social constructs here, not physical clubs. And what 'furry' is by thier own definitions is vague. I like cartoon animals/funny animals and I hang around furry fandom. Thats mainly because I don't give a fuck, and its going to take more than a large handful of perverts to scare me off.

Anyway, some of the people that contributed to Critters, were Steve Gallacci, Stan Sakai, J.P. Morgan, Mike Kazaleh - they were involved with furry fandom.

Ah OK.

Still, food for thought - back in the 80s, the fandom actually included quite a bunch of very talented people, like the ones you mention. But look at it today - it's mostly half-talents and nutty fetishists, with the Kazalehs and the Sakais far and few between. It would seem the fucked-up-ness prevailent in the fandom has made many of the big talents disassociate themselves from the it, so that it's now mainly the happy amateurs drawing for each other.

A new volume of Albedo (5, I think) is coming out thru Shanda soon...It might even be premeiring at Anthrocon. Gallacci wrote it, and I think Shawntae Howard drew it. Gallacci still posts to AFF occassionally and the Albedo Yahoo group. I think he is on Yerf as well.

Thanks for the info. :) Hmm... I still have to get most back issues from vol. 3 and all of vol. 4. Gah. Considering how difficult it was to find anything after vol. 1, it's hardly worth the effort... :? And yes, Gallacci's on Yerf, and VCL too, but he's posted nothing new on either for years.
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viron
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Posted: 7/4/2004 7:39:11 PM     Post subject:  

There are certain rabid Pawpet fans who've become almost a secret police unto themselves in their own minds, ready to spread nastiness about any furs who dare to criticize Pawpet openly, doing their damndest to get such different thinkers ostracized. The Pawpet people if not actively contributing to this, do absolutely nothing to discourage this. I know more than one fur who's been essentially done-in socially by these deranged assholes.


Do you mean pawpet police do that to people who try to criticize pawpet... like in a "oh pawpet sucks"-type criticizing, or "try to lump pawpet in with nasty pervo furries"-type criticizing?

Either way, why should pawpet discourage that? Would they even be aware of that? And what on earth could they do to stop it? People on the other side of the internet can pretty much do whatever they want.

They're great people, they're having fun and I believe they are very cool for doing what they do, but damn if it's not one of the most uninteresting things I've ever come across in the fandom. And the way they operate the show is just.. well ridiculous in many ways. But my ridiculously high standards in performance and video production are no good judge for people who are just having fun, so there's no reason to openly say that to them other than for stroking my own ego. Nothing their rabid fans can do can 'screw' me in any way, I'm not in the fandom.

I think there should be more pawpet-type furries out there anyway, I won't lump good people in with bad ones.
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Wayd Wolf
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Posted: 7/5/2004 12:42:55 AM     Post subject:  

There are certain rabid Pawpet fans who've become almost a secret police unto themselves in their own minds, ready to spread nastiness about any furs who dare to criticize Pawpet openly, doing their damndest to get such different thinkers ostracized. The Pawpet people if not actively contributing to this, do absolutely nothing to discourage this. I know more than one fur who's been essentially done-in socially by these deranged assholes.


Do you mean pawpet police do that to people who try to criticize pawpet... like in a "oh pawpet sucks"-type criticizing, or "try to lump pawpet in with nasty pervo furries"-type criticizing?


ANY criticism. Anything short of rabid love is unacceptable to these folks. See Rankin's response.
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