Crush...Yiff...Destroy!

Big Evil Ogre · Apocrisiary Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 44

Hey all. I'm new here so if I do anything against the rules or something, please forgive me and I'll fix it.
I was told about this place, and figured it would be perfect to mention my most recent rant.
Now me, I am a furry... sorta. But a CLEAN one. I don't go buyin' furry spooge art and stuff. I just commission illos of my characters for a fic I tried writing once.
I tried to commission an artist for years. First time I can RECALL was in 98. I tried time and again. I knew he took sketchbook commissions, so I tried at cons. He can't say he doesn't take sketchbooks because he always had PILES of them at his table. His style was perfect for a certain character. Anyway, he always said no until at Anthrocon earlier this year. He finally broke down and told me "Come in first thing in the morning and I'll do one for you."
I mentioned how I had to fly out, but I'd call and see if I could arrange something, and I postponed my flight at $50 fee for the sudden change. So I showed up, but he never did. His wife was there but she couldn't do anything, not even sell me a print or CD.
Now, until recently my job was to chase bad cheques. Someone writes a bad cheque, I'm the guy that gets the money. There is an old saying, "Never write a cheque your ass can't cash." and that's what he did.
So I waited and emailed, no reply. Waited more and still no reply. Finally a freind asked and suddenly he saw fit to RESPOND! Basically his take was
"I met someone in the hall and was held back. Shit happens".
Son of a BITCH! I went through all that and all he could say was "Shit happens"
He's going to be lucky if I don't lay him out thinner then the jelly in a pop tart!
Thoughts? Ideas?
Thanks for listening.

M0us3_Zero · Venter Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 252

Hate to say it, but there's nothing you really can do. Dude's an ass I'll admit that, but really, this guy you should give up on.

Of course, my 20/20 hindsight says you should have kicked the louse to the curb earlier.

Charisma · Prattler Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 163

you say you chased this guy for years? He probably said yes just to gte rid of you. Out of order I know, as he should have just been honest from the start, but you should never continually pester an artist if they keep saying 'no'.

ZenZhu · Vociferator Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 669

Certainly have been getting a steady influx lately.

The Outsider · Coadjutor Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 100

All Right! Big Evil is in da house! :D :D :D

I can vouch for Ogre. He's good folk. He brings up a valid point. Amongst the usual complaints about furdom, arrogant artgods hasn't really been touched on. Granted, it's their right and privilege to draw whatever whenever, but if they don't want to draw in someone's sketchbook they should sound off like they have a pair and inform the sketchbook's owner. Lord knows I do. The best solution would be to boycott the almighty hell out of the artgod, but that'll never happen. Certain fanboys must have their eye-candy. It's yet another resolvable situation in a genre of fandom where there's absolutely NO accountability.

The Outsider

Wayd Wolf · Vociferator Joined: 06 Oct 2003 Posts: 522

It's a problem in many places, not just furry. The customer complaints of paying for what wasn't received happen in satellite and home networking as well. I know, I clean up for that sort of thing.

In furry, it's a longstanding problem that, for instance, Mike Hirtes could go on forever about. There's several artists who take money and never deliver and see no problem doing it and will say so publicly and the fanboys will STILL cover for them with all manner of excuses.

Of course, the instances of art being done without payment in return are legion as well.

Remember kids, taking money or product without the opposite being exchanged is wrong. Well, of course we all know this.

But furrydom?

:roll:

The New Meat · Vociferator Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 403

Hey all. I'm new here so if I do anything against the rules or something, please forgive me and I'll fix it.
I was told about this place, and figured it would be perfect to mention my most recent rant.
Now me, I am a furry... sorta. But a CLEAN one. I don't go buyin' furry spooge art and stuff. I just commission illos of my characters for a fic I tried writing once.

Okay, since you're new, I'll explain: Everyone who posts here feels the need to start off with "I'm a furry but not the icky kind" schtick. The misconception here is that we're primarily some sort of anti-porn site. I know a couple of us here don't like the smut or at least the weirder, more extreme stuff or smut's insane omnipresence throughout furry, but I think we're mainly here to make fun of furry dipshittery, whether or not it involves smut. That said, don't you think the fact that you had to chase this guy for years might indicate that, you know, he's not interested? You yourself said it: you wore him down.

Here's a little E/N story to illustrate: My sister once had a stalker who followed her around for her last two years of high school. He called her at all times of day. He showed up whenever she got out of class. She told him she wan't interested many times, but was too nice to tell him off properly. Eventually, after two years of this she finally broke down and agreed to go to a movie with him. The next day, he told to the whole school that they were officially an item. When she told him that wasn't the case, he started blubbering and demanding to know "WHY DID YOU LIE TO ME?!?!?" Because, obviously, she was too blame for his being a dumbass.

Granted, it's their right and privilege to draw whatever whenever, but if they don't want to draw in someone's sketchbook they should sound off like they have a pair and inform the sketchbook's owner.

I think the fact that Ogre had to chase the guy FOR YEARS pretty clearly indicates that he's not interested. I know it's slightly less subtle than if he just let loose with a big "FUCK YOU," but sometimes you have to read between the lines.

Though I'll agree with Wayd, artists running off with money is a rampant problem in furry. Did you pay this guy before he skedaddled, Ogre?

ZenZhu · Vociferator Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 669

I tried to commission an artist for years. First time I can RECALL was in 98. I tried time and again. I knew he took sketchbook commissions, so I tried at cons. He can't say he doesn't take sketchbooks because he always had PILES of them at his table. His style was perfect for a certain character. Anyway, he always said no until at Anthrocon earlier this year. He finally broke down and told me "Come in first thing in the morning and I'll do one for you."

Most businesses maintain a policy of reserving the right to refuse service for various reasons, so long as those reasons don't involve discrimination based on race, gender, religion, etc. If you're loud and rowdy, a restaurant may ask you to leave. If you're drunk, an airline can refuse to let you on the plane. With artists, as with all people who do work on a commission/consulting basis, they have the luxury to turn down work. Just the other day, I had to respectfully tell a fellow we just couldn't fit his needs because a job he had was both far too quick a turnaround to be done realistically and would have competed severely with our existing work deadlines. On occasion, I get people calling for services where we would simply be a middle man and doing work they could see to themselves, just for a markup. In these cases, I could do the work, but, if it's cheaper and easier for them to go straight to one of our vendors, like our analytical laboratory, then I'll refer them straight to them. It keeps my schedule free of small-potato work that would detract from bigger jobs, and gives the caller a warm, fuzzy feeling that we're out to see that they get their needs met, rather than screwing them out of a few bucks.

The point being, unless he's maybe desperate for the money, an artist that works on commission, such as your average furry artist, can decline to do work for no reason other than he's simply not interested in it. It isn't like Subway where if you go in and can pay for the sandwich, they pretty much have to give you what you order. Just because he does take sketchbook commissions, and just because his style would have been perfect for your character doesn't mean he's honor-bound to do the work. He has the luxury to say no, even if it's for a reason as inane as he didn't care for the species of the character, and didn't feel like drawing it. Now, if you paid him in advance, that would be a different story. Otherwise, he has no obligation to do the work.

When I did furry art, I would get all kinds of emails and letters asking for commissions. (I didn't do the work professionally. My email was available through my web page, and my address got passed around by Steve Gallacci, Tom Verre, Scott Alston, and Toivo Rovainen.) The thing is, I didn't even do commissions. I just drew for fun. Occasionally, I'd draw someone's character because I knew them on the MUCK or something. It was a friendly gesture, not a business arrangement. There seems to be this misconception in furry circles, however, that if an artist has a style people like, then they are a servant of the furry public, and obligated to serve the public's interests. An artist is a private person, just like anyone else, and can work on their terms. A professional artist has a certain obligation to cater to the wants and needs of a client if they want to gain a good reputation and succeed. But, a private artist working on commissions for fans of his or her work is in a unique position where the fans must respect the whims and limitations of the artist if they wish to engage their services. If an artist wants to go so far as to say "I will do no commissions of wolves," then... they can. It may be shooting themselves in the foot in furry circles, but, still.... they can do so freely.

I mentioned how I had to fly out, but I'd call and see if I could arrange something, and I postponed my flight at $50 fee for the sudden change. So I showed up, but he never did.

If you hounded him for a long time to do the work, and he declined, then acquiesced to your persistent nagging, doesn't it seem like paying $50 to change something as expensive as flight plans seem a bit silly... even... dumb?

Now, until recently my job was to chase bad cheques. Someone writes a bad cheque, I'm the guy that gets the money. There is an old saying, "Never write a cheque your ass can't cash." and that's what he did.
So I waited and emailed, no reply. Waited more and still no reply. Finally a freind asked and suddenly he saw fit to RESPOND! Basically his take was "I met someone in the hall and was held back. Shit happens".
Son of a BITCH!

Well, unless a contract was signed or money changed hands to put him on retainer for this consultation, it's really his perogative. Granted, standing you up was rude, but hardly a violation of some binding contract.

I went through all that and all he could say was "Shit happens"

Well, it does. That's why you use plenty of paper.

He's going to be lucky if I don't lay him out thinner then the jelly in a pop tart!
Thoughts? Ideas?
Thanks for listening.

While he conduct may have not been polite or professional, it doesn't sound like we're talking about someone who is polite or professional. This wasn't a contractual agreement. Furthermore, he's completely in his rights to refuse to do the work for nothing more than lack of interest.

My ideas? Shit happens. Deal. Leave the guy alone and go about your merry way.

Big Evil Ogre · Apocrisiary Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 44

Actually I haven't been stalking him. I haven't even avaraged asking once a year. I ask passing by at the occasional con, maybe two emails. No money changed hands, YET. We had a time and a place to meet and a price we agreed on. I think $35.
I don't stalk. Sure I obsess a little, but I don't hound anyone. I don't DO rude or obnoxious. It isn't my style. I work in customer service, I know how to act AS a customer if not better than most customers.
Basically all I wanted was to share my story, maybe hear other's experiences. I feel like I'm being made out as the bad guy here. Trust me, I commissioned over 200 furry artists, each and every one would have good thigns to say. Sure I may be a little odd in thier eyes, I'm a biker. I'm a little different. But I always keep other people's feelings in mind, not always succeeding but I like to think I have a good track record. Sure, he had the right to say no. But he never DID. He told me to try him at a con because he was not taking commissions, but he'd do a sketch. I struck out each time because he got booked too quickly. I moved on and got others.
He's just rude. He's just unprofessional, and he's an asshole. He's a standard elitist furry artist who feels they're too good for the fans. In other words, he's a male Tygger.

The New Meat · Vociferator Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 403

I feel like I'm being made out as the bad guy here.

Go back and read your original post. The story you tell there is quite different from the one you tell in this latest message, and I'm sure you can understand how we'd come away with the impression that you're harassing a guy who just doesn't want to draw for you.

He's just rude. He's just unprofessional, and he's an asshole. He's a standard elitist furry artist who feels they're too good for the fans. In other words, he's a male Tygger.

The version of events that you relate in this latest post seems to indicate that this guy is, like many artists, busy, somewhat distracted, and less than considerate. Apart from being stood up at the end, has he done anything to indicate that he's got a huge stupid ego? Have you considered the possibility that, you know, maybe he really did get held up? Sure, it was a jerky thing to do to leave you hanging, but was there really malicious intent behind it?

Shmorky · Venter Joined: 22 Nov 2003 Posts: 208

illos

Big Evil Ogre · Apocrisiary Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 44

What exactly is different? I'm sure if I posted it exactly you'd say I was just posting from a pre written script. So go on ahead, point out the differences.
You are aware that in court, where I spent a LOT of time, the last thing that ever happens is the same story told the same way twice. That brings on suspicion.
I'm sure if you went to my livejournal, there will be differences as well.
Guess what, the bible was written different ways. It happens. I focused on different parts, I was also less pissed off this time around, I had also been further discussing my issues with said artist. Point out the differences please. Give me a chance to explain. Otherwise all you are doing is looking to make the bad guy out of me.
He IS busy. But the fact you continuously overlook is I am upset because he said he'd do something, then he didn't. It was rude. It was unprofessional, and it is a bigger problem in furry than I have personally seen in others.
I read the posts, I don't see a hell of a lot of difference. The biggest being the "I was chasing after" where I plainly pointed out that it was a bad way to put it and exlpained the issue. Do you want me to leave? Don't give me that "Well if you feel you must" noise. Answer the question. Do you all want me to leave? You want me gone? Yes or no. Simple one word answer. I mean damn, you read so much between the lines you're not reading the actual lines with it.

Big Evil Ogre · Apocrisiary Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 44

Erm, Illos?

Big Evil Ogre · Apocrisiary Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 44

Man, sorry, I'm getting cranky. It's 4 am. I apologize if I'm getting tempermental. AND a bit absent minded.

It's hard to describe how I can tell he has an ego. It's like trying to describe the look in somoene's eyes when they're trying to tell you something without words and be convincing about it.
I kept in mind he may have been held up or something happened. It's his inability to reply that turned it rude. Plus he had his wife there. He could have told her to pass on "He's been held up. I'm sorry.", she didn't know what he was doing or where he was. If you went to a convention with your wife wouldn't you pretty much know those things? That seemed suspicious. Plus he didn't reply to the emails I sent when she told me to. That set off another alarm. Finally a freind managed to get in touch for me. He was kind, though not greatly tactful, he was cordial.
My Email in reply to what he said to me and my freind wasn't as nice. But it wasn't terribly unprofessional either. I didn't use fowl language and told him why I was disappointed. He turned into a drama queen "Because of you I will never take a commission again!" (In a nutshell)
Now sure, I was stern. But I sure wasn''t evil.
How hard would it have been to just email my reply when I asked why he didn't show?
I'm not saying he didn't have the right. I'm saying he's an asshole.
I had hoped for a better welcome. But right now I don't know why I should keep posting anything at all. I feel like I'm on fakeout and a bad truth teller. I have witnesses, but they despise you guys for things like this. They won't come in and say "Yeah, I was there when so-and-so said he'd be there and I waited with him for this artist."
Come on cut me a break here. So I'm a bad story teller. But it's the truth. If you don't like how I explain things, tell me to go away. Yes, or no. No "Do what you feeel you need" cop outs.

The Outsider · Coadjutor Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 100

If you don't like how I explain things, tell me to go away. Yes, or no. No "Do what you feeel you need" cop outs.

(Saccing up and stepping up) I want you to stay. You're right, there's too much reading between the lines to the point where the actual text isn't even considered. I guess some of these folk are trying to pass the bar exam. Reminds me of the "dungeon lawyers" and "physics majors" from my gaming days.

The take is very simple. Ogre got stiffed, he got stiffed repeatedly. It wouldn't have gotten to the repeated mode had the artist shown some gumption. Rag the artist, not Ogre. As far as Ogre knew he didn't know that the artist didn't care to do the commission. Now he knows.

Some of y'all sure know how to make someone welcome over here.

The Outsider

Mitch · Vociferator Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 335

Man, sorry, I'm getting cranky. It's 4 am. I apologize if I'm getting tempermental. AND a bit absent minded.

It's hard to describe how I can tell he has an ego. It's like trying to describe the look in somoene's eyes when they're trying to tell you something without words and be convincing about it.
I kept in mind he may have been held up or something happened. It's his inability to reply that turned it rude. Plus he had his wife there. He could have told her to pass on "He's been held up. I'm sorry.", she didn't know what he was doing or where he was. If you went to a convention with your wife wouldn't you pretty much know those things? That seemed suspicious. Plus he didn't reply to the emails I sent when she told me to. That set off another alarm. Finally a freind managed to get in touch for me. He was kind, though not greatly tactful, he was cordial.
My Email in reply to what he said to me and my freind wasn't as nice. But it wasn't terribly unprofessional either. I didn't use fowl language and told him why I was disappointed. He turned into a drama queen "Because of you I will never take a commission again!" (In a nutshell)
Now sure, I was stern. But I sure wasn''t evil.
How hard would it have been to just email my reply when I asked why he didn't show?
I'm not saying he didn't have the right. I'm saying he's an asshole.
I had hoped for a better welcome. But right now I don't know why I should keep posting anything at all. I feel like I'm on fakeout and a bad truth teller. I have witnesses, but they despise you guys for things like this. They won't come in and say "Yeah, I was there when so-and-so said he'd be there and I waited with him for this artist."
Come on cut me a break here. So I'm a bad story teller. But it's the truth. If you don't like how I explain things, tell me to go away. Yes, or no. No "Do what you feeel you need" cop outs.

Your story is perfectly straightforward to me - Mystery Artist X didn't want to do a commission for you and instead of coming right out and saying so, opted instead to behave like a posterior orifice and string you along. And you are pretty understandably pissed about it, and the guy concerned sounds like a prize dick.

Shmorky · Venter Joined: 22 Nov 2003 Posts: 208

hey...

HEY.

Moesha.

ZenZhu · Vociferator Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 669

Okay, let's whittle this down to the bare bones.

1) The artist for one reason or another didn't want to do the work.

2) The artist was somehow convinced to meet to discuss the work and perhaps take the commission.

3) The potential customer shifted some plans and paid money in fees for those changes by his own choosing.

4) The artist didn't show up, and is now being an ass about the whole thing.

5) The potential customer comes here to gripe about the situation.

You'd be hard-pressed to go through life and not meet a few jerks (you came here, after all :D). Sometimes, you get burned. At least in this case, you didn't get burned financially (the flight fees were of your own choosing, and don't really factor in). He doesn't have your money with nothing in return to show for it. Sure, he was unprofessional, but not everyone holds themselves to a high standard of professionalism. If you hold yourself to a high standard, you can't hold others to the same standard, or you'll be perpetually disappointed.

I tried to commission an artist for years. First time I can RECALL was in 98. I tried time and again. I knew he took sketchbook commissions, so I tried at cons. He can't say he doesn't take sketchbooks because he always had PILES of them at his table. His style was perfect for a certain character.

Actually I haven't been stalking him. I haven't even avaraged asking once a year. I ask passing by at the occasional con, maybe two emails. No money changed hands, YET. We had a time and a place to meet and a price we agreed on. I think $35.
I don't stalk. Sure I obsess a little, but I don't hound anyone. I don't DO rude or obnoxious. It isn't my style. I work in customer service, I know how to act AS a customer if not better than most customers.
Basically all I wanted was to share my story, maybe hear other's experiences. I feel like I'm being made out as the bad guy here.

Sorry if we're casting you unfairly. Perhaps it would be reasonable to at least suggest you came on a little strong. If you look at the two quotes, it does read a bit differently- the first one sounding like you've been at him nonstop since '98. ("Can we get a pool, dad? Can we get a pool, dad? Can we get a pool, dad? Can we get a pool, dad?") The second paints it in a more reasonable light as the occasional attempt at getting him to do the work.

Instead of ragging on this guy, just let it go. Nothing will be accomplished by bitching here, unless you want to specifically tell us who it is so others can avoid getting burned in similar fashion. Yeah, he was unprofessional and a dick but.... what can you do? Just be glad you didn't pay him or anything and that things weren't worse. What more do you want from us? We're pretty much in agreement that, based on your story, the guy's an ass. But, beyond that, there's not much we can do for you.

Oh, and welcome to flavor country.

The New Meat · Vociferator Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 403

What exactly is different? I'm sure if I posted it exactly you'd say I was just posting from a pre written script. So go on ahead, point out the differences.

Having just reread my last post I made here last night, I have to say that I was kinda being a dick. Sorry about that. The story you told wasn't really different, it was just that there were, ya know, some subtle differences in emphasis that could have caused us to read it wrong. Or maybe just me.

Originally it sounded like you'd been chasing this guy for years and eventually wore him down. It sounded like he'd turned you down multiple times but you just kept persisting. I know you didn't say that in those words, but that's what it sounded like. Yes, I know, too much between the line reading.

In your second post, you said that you'd really only talked to him a couple times, about once a year or so, and that he'd never really outright refused. He'd just always been too busy. You didn't really say anything different, but you can see how it might be interpreted differently.

But the fact you continuously overlook is I am upset because he said he'd do something, then he didn't. It was rude. It was unprofessional, and it is a bigger problem in furry than I have personally seen in others.

I can see why that would piss you off, but, unless it was deliberate, it doesn't seem worth stewing over. Here's why I "overlooked" that: From your second post, it sounded more like he was a busy guy who hadn't done anything to snub you in the past, so his missing your meeting might indeed have been an honest mistake. Which would make him really inconsiderate but not necessarily a complete dick. If he deliberately dicked you over, well, that's another story.

I did miss the detail about how he wouldn't reply to your emails and you only found out about this from another friend. That does seem to raise this to the level of a deliberate slight. In which case, yes, you're right, he's an asshole.

It's hard to describe how I can tell he has an ego. It's like trying to describe the look in somoene's eyes when they're trying to tell you something without words and be convincing about it.
I kept in mind he may have been held up or something happened. It's his inability to reply that turned it rude. Plus he had his wife there. He could have told her to pass on "He's been held up. I'm sorry.", she didn't know what he was doing or where he was. If you went to a convention with your wife wouldn't you pretty much know those things? That seemed suspicious. Plus he didn't reply to the emails I sent when she told me to. That set off another alarm. Finally a freind managed to get in touch for me. He was kind, though not greatly tactful, he was cordial.

Okay, you've got some pretty strong evidence here. Having read this, I'll agree that this artist was being an asstard.

Skunkfuckers Inc. · Prattler Joined: 20 Jan 2004 Posts: 159

Man, sorry, I'm getting cranky. It's 4 am. I apologize if I'm getting tempermental. AND a bit absent minded.

Oh, you're a furry, you're excused. No wait, you're not. <-- not really being mean

fowl language

God help me, I must be tired because that made me laugh <-- still not being mean

He turned into a drama queen "Because of you I will never take a commission again!" (In a nutshell)

Can you give a link to this guys work, or is there some unspoken rule about pointing out a fellow furry to the enemy? I don't even care to make fun of it, I'm just curious how good this guys art is. If it's crappy art we're going to laugh at you for wanting to pay money for it, but if it's good (and porn), I'll probabaly fap to it tonight. <-- surprisingly, STILL not being mean!

I had hoped for a better welcome. But right now I don't know why I should keep posting anything at all. I feel like I'm on fakeout and a bad truth teller. I have witnesses, but they despise you guys for things like this. They won't come in and say "Yeah, I was there when so-and-so said he'd be there and I waited with him for this artist."

Come on cut me a break here. So I'm a bad story teller. But it's the truth. If you don't like how I explain things, tell me to go away. Yes, or no. No "Do what you feeel you need" cop outs.

Okay, now I'm wanting to internet-seriously get mean on you. Stop being pleady and whiny, no one cares if you stay or not. You wanna stay, that's cool, but the very fact that you even care about someone on a message board accepting you or not makes me think that maybe this isn't a place you'd enjoy much.

If you were just looking for someone to pat you on the head and offer up banal sympathies to make you feel better or thought you could manipulate us into mindlessly taking up ranks against some artist, you're on the wrong forum.

By the same token, if you were expecting anyone here would outright support this artist, giving you someone to rail against, bear in mind that most of the people here aren't drooling, diddling fanboys who hold artists up as some kind of demi-gods, and don't care enough about them to mount a kneejerk defense on their behalf.

If you want open discourse, it's not something you should afraid of. You asked for advice, it was given to you honestly and respectfully, which is more than you would have been offered on most furry themed boards. I don't see the problem there.

We do think Donotsue is just the bee's knees, because we like him and he's got those crazy, crazy wild eyes and alluringly feminine hips.

Donotsue · Venter Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 209

Since I am so lazy these days I just recycled the old Evil Twin... for the Joker card! =)

Now tell us who was the cowardly artist? Couldn've been Steven.. he always draws for money...even in his sleep... =)

There's a party in his pants, and Rankin is not invited! =)

Rankin · Vociferator Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 727

There's a party in his pants, and Rankin is not invited! =)

This makes me a sad panda. Bad, bad squirrel! :evil:

Quantum Coyote · Coadjutor Joined: 12 May 2004 Posts: 89

Skunkfucker's Inc. Wrote:

If you were just looking for someone to pat you on the head and offer up banal sympathies to make you feel better or thought you could manipulate us into mindlessly taking up ranks against some artist, you're on the wrong forum.

Maybe he's misinterpreting the response Ebonwolf got in the other thread?

We do think Donotsue is just the bee's knees, because we like him and he's got those crazy, crazy wild eyes and alluringly feminine hips.

"<sigh> Everybody wants a piece of Donotsue"

Big Evil Ogre Wrote:

I don't DO rude or obnoxious.

I know how to act AS a customer if not better than most customers.

I can't test the validity of these statements in a RL sort of way, but my impression is that you might just have your foot in the door on 'elitist'.
Welcome to pandora's windows box! <Sprays own foot with odour eater just in case it happens to end up in the maw>

Donotsue · Venter Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 209

Yeah .. everybody but the ladies...

Aw, would you have wanted to get in to the party, Rankin? =)

ZenZhu · Vociferator Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 669

QUEER EYE FOR THE SQUIRREL GUY!

Skunkfuckers Inc. · Prattler Joined: 20 Jan 2004 Posts: 159

I have to admit truthfully that Donny's evil twin got stuck in my head for a few days, not to mention a few fitful, restless nights. As I lay awake in bed, I pined in vain to live in a perfect world were I could enjoy the company of his warm, furry athletic body against mine, and found his presence in my thoughts helped chase away the cold, persistant loneliness that so often is my bedmate.

So all is good.

There's a party in his pants, and Rankin is not invited! =)

Rankin is always invited to the party in my pants, but only the front part.

Ain't like I'm gay or nothin'.

Big Evil Ogre · Apocrisiary Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 44

Thanks for the support and sorry for coming on strong. Old habits die hard. Before being a deli worker I worked in collections, not the guy who calls you and asks, I'm the one they send to the bank, or to your door with court papers or papers to garnish wages. I had to be agressive, eventually it became something I do naturally. Trust me, I'm not so bad in person.
Now this artist... his name is... Ken Sample aka Coug'r
He's at www.Pumapaw.com
Other artists that burned me are Tygger, out of some $170 worth of stuff, but I usually round to $200 because then there's extra shipping I sent but didn't record, as well as a gift from China I sent.
Also got burned by a ho' named Beverly Toole. She accused me of selling her fiction. I want to be a writer, she and I were doing a crossover. I showed a publisher three pages I wrote for the crossover, no sign at all about anything of hers, and she went ballistic. Even had her freinds sending hate mail. She isn't even a big fish! I submitted the pages to see what he thought of my technique (Where he said I sucked). I mean, I make mistakes. I made them with about everyone. But I have been willing to stand up and take my punishment, usually a spanking... they want to run me over with a truck

AS for me being furry... or not... that I'm not sure about. It depends on what you consider to be a furry. I have fantasy characters that are primarily lycanthrope that spend a majority of thier time in a hybrid state. Most art I have is of them in that state. But, I don't go around in a fursuit humping stuffed animals or other furries or collect furry porn. In fact, out of everything I have, I have ONE pic with furry bare boobs. It was a fan pic.
If anyone here has ever seen ANY art of a female furry boxer, there's a 99% chance she's mine. A good 75% chance if it boxing related period.
THAT is why I wanted an image from Sample. His art style preferring muscular females would compliment my character Sierra. It was a thought out decision. KnowhatImean?

If I am a furry in your opinions, I am not a perverted furry. If I am not a furry, I might be inclined to agree.
I haven't checked Pumapaw.com, but if he left my name and Email up at his site, I'm open to suggestions. I can't afford an attorney. Not like I expect a stampede of fanboys or something.

Mitch · Vociferator Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 335

I haven't checked Pumapaw.com, but if he left my name and Email up at his site, I'm open to suggestions. I can't afford an attorney. Not like I expect a stampede of fanboys or something.

He's got your name and email up on his site, yes, but it's nothing to get legal about. Here's what he says:

After an exchange of words with a Mr. Richard Wright, ogre302@yahoo.com, I've been made aware of my poor ability to satisfy his desires and those of some other people in regards to doing art for them at conventions. Scheduling myself through all of the activities of con madness with enough time to cater to the wishes of those, like Mr. Wright, who want my art and attention is sorely lacking. This fact has been brought home with great force.

So, rather than continue to disappoint Mr Wright and others like him, and to avoid any further ridicule from the same, I have decided that I will no longer take commission requests at conventions. Conventions are stressful enough times. I much rather not have to deal with the guilt from disappointed people after the fact.

I suppose he should've minged your email or something, but apart from that little quibble it seems pretty restrained.

ZenZhu · Vociferator Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 669

Ken Sample is one of furrydom's big hoo-hahs. It's unsurprising that he'd be so busy that he missed an appointment that was more of an aside from his schedule than something dire. Beyond that, this thread is on a slow train to nowhere.

DA · Vociferator Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 355

Don't really see what all this fuss about this Ken sample is. All I see on his site are basic pinups with little annoying flaws, like the cross eyed puma?

What on earth was worth $170? bloody hell I wish I had customers like you. Nobody's ever spent that much to hire me for stuff. :?

ZenZhu · Vociferator Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 669

He's a furry art god. $170 is cheap to suckle at his teat.

DA · Vociferator Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 355

He's a furry art god. $170 is cheap to suckle at his teat.

Furry art gods can go jump, I've only found a few who I can't attain a similar standard to at the moment. It ain't that bloody hard to draw most of the shit furry 'art gods' draw since most of them A: Never go past pin-ups B: only draw one fucking thing C: Suck royally despite having fans. :roll:

The New Meat · Vociferator Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 403

Furry art gods can go jump, I've only found a few who I can't attain a similar standard to at the moment.

Yes, we know. Because you say this everytime ANY artist is mentioned. You could do much better, I'm sure. Seeing as you're the greatest artist ever.

ZenZhu · Vociferator Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 669

Furry art gods can go jump, I've only found a few who I can't attain a similar standard to at the moment. It ain't that bloody hard to draw most of the shit furry 'art gods' draw since most of them A: Never go past pin-ups B: only draw one fucking thing C: Suck royally despite having fans. :roll:

I give you, the Terrie Smith, uber-detailed background:

_________________________________________________________

There you go. Use this skill wisely.

Rankin · Vociferator Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 727

Yeah .. everybody but the ladies...

Aw, would you have wanted to get in to the party, Rankin? =)

Awww, you're so cute and downtrodden. You'd make such a kyoooot whiny bitch. ;)

Skunkfuckers Inc. · Prattler Joined: 20 Jan 2004 Posts: 159

Furry art gods can go jump, I've only found a few who I can't attain a similar standard to at the moment.

Yes, we know. Because you say this everytime ANY artist is mentioned. You could do much better, I'm sure. Seeing as you're the greatest artist ever.

You know, I may not be able to rattle off a con sketch at the drop of a hat, but I've done some commission quality pieces for free that are way better than the majority of the crap going for money on Furbid. For a lot less than $170 I could sit down and bang out something until you got a Ken Sample (or better) quality piece, and with me you wouldn't even have to worry about getting screwed over. Plus, if I actually started practicing regularly at my art instead of just doing the odd piece every few months, all in all I could probably make some good pocket change, which would in turn be the perfect motivation to practice.

Hmm... I smell a potentially disastrous decision coming on. Dear god, somebody slap some sense into me before I do something I regret!

Wayd Wolf · Vociferator Joined: 06 Oct 2003 Posts: 522

For $170 there's probably a good chance you could find some furries to hogtie Ken Sample to his table, slather him in A-1 sauce, and scream "DINNER!" to the dealer room. Odd that furries work cheaper the stranger the work is. But getting art out of them? "Throw money you peons and noobs!"

For $170 I could buy a very nice churchwarden pipe and enough tins of tobacco to keep me in my rocking chair for quite a while.

Sounds kind of strange to get wrapped up in one artist.

Rankin · Vociferator Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 727

Hmm... I smell a potentially disastrous decision coming on. Dear god, somebody slap some sense into me before I do something I regret!

You never finished the masterpiece you made me, dammit! The color of the vomit was all wrong, and it was really spray-y, rather than chunky... and where was the phallus? :(

The New Meat · Vociferator Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 403

Hmm... I smell a potentially disastrous decision coming on. Dear god, somebody slap some sense into me before I do something I regret!

You never finished the masterpiece you made me, dammit! The color of the vomit was all wrong, and it was really spray-y, rather than chunky... and where was the phallus? :(

OH GAWD SO HAWT FAPFAPFAPFAPFAPFAP

DA · Vociferator Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 355

Furry art gods can go jump, I've only found a few who I can't attain a similar standard to at the moment.

Yes, we know. Because you say this everytime ANY artist is mentioned. You could do much better, I'm sure. Seeing as you're the greatest artist ever.

*shrugs* I take it you've seen some of the 'art gods' work, yes there are very few I would give anything to be as talented as but a large percentage of 'art gods' make me wince in sympathetic pain with their creations. I'm not the greatest but I am impossibly picky when it comes to what wins kudos from me.

I may be an art snob but I'll tell a 'art god' if their creations hips look like they're made of mashed potatoe rather than slavering mindlessly.

I used to live next to this guy who had no art lessons whatsoever, he still produced a picture that made me go 'wow wish I could do that' through sheer effort his first time.

DA · Vociferator Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 355

Furry art gods can go jump, I've only found a few who I can't attain a similar standard to at the moment. It ain't that bloody hard to draw most of the shit furry 'art gods' draw since most of them A: Never go past pin-ups B: only draw one fucking thing C: Suck royally despite having fans. :roll:

I give you, the Terrie Smith, uber-detailed background:

_________________________________________________________

There you go. Use this skill wisely.

What about Michelle light? All her stuff looks identical. whatever happened to variety? it's like some artist find a winning forumula and never ever deviate from it even for a laugh.

Paul · Venter Joined: 01 Feb 2004 Posts: 215

What about Michelle light? All her stuff looks identical. whatever happened to variety? it's like some artist find a winning forumula and never ever deviate from it even for a laugh.

Michelle Light, now there's a mystery. When I first saw one of her drawings, I thought, hey, she's good. Very tight, slick style. I like that. Then I saw a second picture... and a third... and so on... Practically no variation. And I wonder, what makes a person who undeniably has considerable talent get stuck with doing the same damn picture over and over again?

I can understand wanting to stick to a formula that sells - but why not do other works as well that develop beyond that? Isn't that what creative expression is all about - exploring new territory? Are these non-developing furry artists not developing because they don't want to develop beyond that certain point that gets them the desired praise from the furries, or is furrydumb keeping them down by requesting virtually the same damn skunkette drawing again and again and again?

It would seem to confirm my theory that there are no really good artists in furrydumb. Furry artists are either consistently on or under the okay-but-not-too-good level, or they leave the fandumb for good once they've developed their skill to a level that can actually be marketed out in the real world.

Skunkfuckers Inc. · Prattler Joined: 20 Jan 2004 Posts: 159

You never finished the masterpiece you made me, dammit! The color of the vomit was all wrong, and it was really spray-y, rather than chunky... and where was the phallus? :(

You ate it. There were chunks of penis in your vomit. Did you not notice the pink chunks? I don't see how you can say it wasn't chunky, because there were chunks. Do I have to explain everything to you? And you never specified what you wanted, you just kept posting vague, non-commital crap about cheesecake or something. I guess that way if I flipped out and drew you something with tits and fur you'd maintain culpable deniability.

Well, no more. I expect an e-mail from you requesting some hot furry spooge, with plenty of details included. The only things I won't draw are pedo, bloated furries or shit-play. Otherwise, when it comes to art I don't care. Do your worst, you will only increase my stature as a future art god.

No one ever sends me e-mails at that address (except that one person who I suspect is secretly blossom). I feel lonely and unloved by the people on this forum.

Rankin · Vociferator Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 727

You ate it. There were chunks of penis in your vomit. Did you not notice the pink chunks? I don't see how you can say it wasn't chunky, because there were chunks. Do I have to explain everything to you? And you never specified what you wanted, you just kept posting vague, non-commital crap about cheesecake or something. I guess that way if I flipped out and drew you something with tits and fur you'd maintain culpable deniability.

Honestly, Ken (oops!), I had expected more from you. The pink appeared more to be of the femenine persuasian than a cock. They were also quite ripe, and full of zest, which would not be zombie flesh, as I had requested. I requested flesh of the dead, or the mentally dead, either/or.

I doubt you have the ability to draw my charachter and something else with tits. I DARE YOU, SIR!

Well, no more. I expect an e-mail from you requesting some hot furry spooge, with plenty of details included. The only things I won't draw are pedo, bloated furries or shit-play. Otherwise, when it comes to art I don't care. Do your worst, you will only increase my stature as a future art god.

No one ever sends me e-mails at that address (except that one person who I suspect is secretly blossom). I feel lonely and unloved by the people on this forum.

I will send you a message requesting lots of spooge, lots of fur, and even more humpage. Less assplay, if you dare. Hell - can you even draw hetero? I dobut it!

I am not blossom.

Big Evil Ogre · Apocrisiary Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 44

Zenzhu,
Yeah, it's a slow train to no where. It was just something I wanted to point out to people as one of the more annoying habits I witnessed in Furry. As well as the classic argument where one person accuses the other of stealing thier stuff.

DA,
Actually with Sample it would have been (if I recall right, I collected a lot of commissions at AC) $35. It was Tygger who got the $170 some odd. I got several prints, a commission, T shirt, and comics and that ammount was over a period of time. I got three out of I think 8 prints and nothing else from her. I admit back then I made a lot of mistakes in how I dealt with artists. I was going through my "mean" period where I was the school bully driving the fastest car and stomping through anyone who looked at me crosseyed. But I wasn't intentionally rude in her case, a lot of hoof in mouth desease which I still have.

I think it was Zenzhu who mentioned Terrie Smith. She is one furry artist I DO have my foot in the door with. She's been good to me for years. I have been awaiting a commission from her for about 6 or 7 years but she keeps in contact with me and at a con is always all smiles and sits and talks for a bit. (Her husband Glen has been cool too. I gotta give him credit)
A lot of the "Big Names" in furry and I have a history. Michele Light dropped everything for a commission when she learned the model for the character (Former pro boxer lady I dated) was severely injured and forced to retire. She made a print of the commission and sent me the original. I paid $40 for it, while other's I have seen on furbid post four digit figures for a commission. (If I had that kind of money to throw around all my hot rods would be finished)
Ken is a good artist. He was more restrained in his message at his website, but he's actually pretty soft spoken by nature. From what I can gather from former meetings with him is I can't really imagine him cursing up a storm.
Some furry artists I know, who probably aren't popular here, who have treated me well I will always speak well of. So that leaves... Tygger, Sample, and Beverly Toole. (No one knows Beverly)
Sorry for this being so long winded, I usually have ONE shot at this and then have to run.
I DID see a thread on the list about furry card games I want to touch on tomorrow.

DA · Vociferator Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 355

A lot of the "Big Names" in furry and I have a history.

No offence but I could make similar claims about big name artists and some such.

To be honest most of the furry 'art gods' aren't worth much in my opinion just by their artwork since most of them just draw the same thing over and over. I'm hardly the greatest artist ever but at least there's some variety to my work.

Others have ego problems, I know a couple who have made my eyes ache with their blind egotism and that is bad coming from someone who is pretty arrogant herself (I have an excuse at least, it's a defense mechanism, my shrink is working on it though).

The New Meat · Vociferator Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 403

Others have ego problems, I know a couple who have made my eyes ache with their blind egotism.

Who? Must hear dirt!!

DA · Vociferator Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 355

Others have ego problems, I know a couple who have made my eyes ache with their blind egotism.

Who? Must hear dirt!!

Not really in the mood to share though I posted one once.

Skunkfuckers Inc. · Prattler Joined: 20 Jan 2004 Posts: 159

Honestly, Ken (oops!),

:shock:

I had expected more from you. The pink appeared more to be of the femenine persuasian than a cock. They were also quite ripe, and full of zest, which would not be zombie flesh, as I had requested. I requested flesh of the dead, or the mentally dead, either/or.

Good Sirrah, I assure you that any cock meats served by this establishment would have surely been rendered quite dead upon contact with your lips. As for the other confusion; we serve only the finest male organs harvested from hermaphrodites. Any true gourmet will tell you the unmistakeable masculo-feminine flavour of hermflesh is far superior to any other dickmeat you can find today. The savory, full bodied aroma with light, airy sweet overtones is to simply die for (as many herms can no doubt attest!)

I doubt you have the ability to draw my charachter and something else with tits. I DARE YOU, SIR!

You seen dicks on tits before? I could draw fucking tits on a dick with a clit so sweet an SA Goon would fap to it. I'll draw you a motherfucking genital Granfalloon so astounding that Waita Uziga would drop a load and bow down to tha row. I'm that good, and better.

<----------------------- ALL SERIOUSNESS BELOW HERE ----------------------->

I will send you a message requesting lots of spooge, lots of fur, and even more humpage. Less assplay, if you dare. Hell - can you even draw hetero? I dobut it!

I had an okay looking sketch started, but threw it away since I wasn't sure if you were okay with a pin-up. Hell, I wasn't even sure you were straight, and hoo boy wouldn't THAT have been embarrassing. And no, I'm not an artist, I just put pencil to paper until something comes out. I have neither the drive nor the care to be a real artist. Ironicly enough, because of that I find I can and will draw anything without a care.

I am not blossom.

Huh? The name on the email was "Shawntae Howard". Dude, you're black? I didn't know. Man, that pic I drew was waaaay off.

Rankin · Vociferator Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 727

I'll draw you a motherfucking genital Granfalloon so astounding that Waita Uziga would drop a load and bow down to tha row. I'm that good, and better.

I... I don't want my lunch now. You can finish it. :(

<----------------------- ALL SERIOUSNESS BELOW HERE ----------------------->
I had an okay looking sketch started, but threw it away since I wasn't sure if you were okay with a pin-up. Hell, I wasn't even sure you were straight, and hoo boy wouldn't THAT have been embarrassing.

NO SPECIAHL SNOWFLAKES!12!!! Actually, I loved that silly little 'one off', with the tail and limbs poking out of the yellow 'cheesecake'. I ended up showing it off as 'my birthday present', since no one else got me a fucking thing this year. It gave me a laugh, thanks.

Huh? The name on the email was "Shawntae Howard". Dude, you're black?

We alls be black when the lights go out.

Jerry Collins · Prattler Joined: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 186

I never considerded myself a "Phurrie " art god....like Ken sample,Juan Alfonso,and myself we were just the new gladiator in the phur-fan circus maximus..the favour of the month newbie that in time would be sacrificedfor the glory of the phurrie Reich..so my brother,your not alone!I hope that I was not of the hated in your eyes,but if so, my appologies anyway...and in the words of Joe Kuberts Sgt. Rock"welcome dogface to the meat grinder,..watch your back!"....Good Luck Brother Ogre

The Outsider · Coadjutor Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 100

I never considerded myself a "Phurrie " art god....like Ken sample,Juan Alfonso,and myself we were just the new gladiator in the phur-fan circus maximus..the favour of the month newbie that in time would be sacrificedfor the glory of the phurrie Reich..so my brother,your not alone!I hope that I was not of the hated in your eyes,but if so, my appologies anyway...and in the words of Joe Kuberts Sgt. Rock"welcome dogface to the meat grinder,..watch your back!"....Good Luck Brother Ogre

You're one up on me. I didn't make "artist of the month" in furdom and was never culled out to be sacrificed for ze glory of ze Reich. Heck, I was known only for what I wore on my head until I did my nigh unpardonable offenses that made me the Outsider.

Thanx for the good words to Ogre. He's one of the GOOD fans.

The Outsider

Big Evil Ogre · Apocrisiary Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 44

I never considerded myself a "Phurrie " art god....like Ken sample,Juan Alfonso,and myself we were just the new gladiator in the phur-fan circus maximus..the favour of the month newbie that in time would be sacrificedfor the glory of the phurrie Reich..so my brother,your not alone!I hope that I was not of the hated in your eyes,but if so, my appologies anyway...and in the words of Joe Kuberts Sgt. Rock"welcome dogface to the meat grinder,..watch your back!"....Good Luck Brother Ogre

Thanks! Only a select few have ever earned the rep of hated by the Ogre. Tygger, Beverly Toole, and Ken Sample. Others have disappointed me but I don't dislike them for it, basically Ben Bruin is one and Richard Bartrop, Fisk, a couple others for various different reasons.
Do you have a website?

Jerry Collins · Prattler Joined: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 186

Brother Ogre, I wish to "Bob" Dobbs I had a web site,as it stands ,I have to borrow the public library's compu-beastie(sigh).I hate to admit it,some small part of me still finds a bit of pleasure(?) in slinky critter types(human,alien,morphs,etc.)but the phurries and reg.sci-fi fandom dolts ruined it for me...at least I have my wife Becca,after all ,she was the template of a lot of my critter-ladies.And to tell you the truth,the real always beats the fantasy! yeah, in my earl days I was kicked in the teeth by pro -phurrie and anti -morph ditto nazis...me?BITTER?..Damned right I am!good luck,and keep it slack!(Jerry)

Jerry Collins · Prattler Joined: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 186

uh, that sould be" early days"...sorry for the crappy key work folks(Jerry)

Big Evil Ogre · Apocrisiary Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 44

Yup. Been there done that too. I wish this town had a decent library myself. (This town is so small DSL isn't available yet.)
I am halfway considering going to Anthrocon. Just to SEE if Sample cops a 'tude with me in person. Just an experiment to see if he is an internet tough guy or not. I won't DO anything, just show up at his table and peek through things. He'll know me. I'm the kinda guy ya don't forget. The Outsider can attest to that.

Brother Ogre, I wish to "Bob" Dobbs I had a web site,as it stands ,I have to borrow the public library's compu-beastie(sigh).I hate to admit it,some small part of me still finds a bit of pleasure(?) in slinky critter types(human,alien,morphs,etc.)but the phurries and reg.sci-fi fandom dolts ruined it for me...at least I have my wife Becca,after all ,she was the template of a lot of my critter-ladies.And to tell you the truth,the real always beats the fantasy! yeah, in my earl days I was kicked in the teeth by pro -phurrie and anti -morph ditto nazis...me?BITTER?..Damned right I am!good luck,and keep it slack!(Jerry)