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Jay Naylor's "Better Days" deconstructed
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Paul
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Posted: 10/2/2004 10:17:40 PM     Post subject: Jay Naylor's "Better Days" deconstructed  

Two days ago, I was sufficiently bored to read Jay Naylor's Better Days in its entirety. I've read bits and pieces of it before, but swallowing the whole thing in one go made me conclude that it's a very fucked up comic, and I started to think up a long rant about it with the intent of posting it on this forum.

But lo and behold, The New Meat beat me to it and has written a Better Days critique for CYD that outdoes anything I could have come up with. Go read it if you haven't already!

There was one aspect of Better Days that The New Meat did not mention in his article, though, one that really struck me, so here you go:

Quick recap: Better Days is the (seemingly semi-autobiograpic) coming-af-age story of Jay Naylor's alter ego Fisk. Like The New Meat points out, Better Days functions as a vehicle for Naylor's personal views on, well, anything. You can bet that when a "sympathetic" Better Days character says or does something, it's because Naylor thinks such opinion or action is right, just and good. (If you doubt that the opinions found in the comic are really Naylor's own, try reading Naylor's livejournal - that'll remove any doubt.)

The odd aspect I mentioned is Fisk's age. His opinions on war, relationships etc. are opinions one would expect to hear from someone, oh, Naylor's age (if they're immature, that is) - not a kid who is 11 or whatever age Fisk is at those exact chapters of Better Days.

The New Meat's bid that Naylor is using the "wise beyond his years" cliché seems convincing. This can be said to work when it comes to talk (well, it doesn't really work in Better Days, but it works very well in, say, Peanuts) - but it makes no sense when it comes to physical actions. I mean, what about the sex? Fisk had sex with a sexually aggressive black, sorry, hyena girl when he was 10 - she was 11. In the most recent Better Days pages, Fisk and his sister Lucy have sex - both of them are 14. So, what the hell does this translate to? Naylor thinks incest is cool? Naylor thinks 10- or 14-year olds having sex is cool?

I'm at a loss here. What is Naylor's point in having children have sex in his comic? Is he doing it for shock effect - to be edgy and controversial? Is it a totally misunderstood and fucked up varitety of the "wise beyond his years" thing? Are 14-year old girls Naylor's idea of hot & sexy? Or did he, because Better Days in a manner of speaking is about himself, simply forget the implications of Fisk being a child?

If anyone has any idea, any suggestion at all, I'd like to read it, because this particular aspect of Better Days seems to be incompatible not only with societal standards but with everything else in the comic as well.
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Computolio
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Posted: 10/2/2004 11:21:21 PM     Post subject:  

I just read it and I can confirm that it is TOTALLY FUCKING RAD.
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mouse
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Posted: 10/2/2004 11:57:27 PM     Post subject:  

Yeah, definatly a very good article.

Im also pretty (ok, very) left-wing so Id probably dislike the comic for a lot of the politics in it.

I still haven't read it at all other than the few pages that were linked here a while ago.
My old excuse was I was on dialup. Well, I have cable now.. so I cant really use that excuse anymore so I'll just say... 'gee one of these days Im going have to go thru and read Better Days'

I mean, what about the sex? Fisk had sex with a sexually aggressive black, sorry, hyena girl when he was 10 - she was 11. In the most recent Better Days pages, Fisk and his sister Lucy have sex - both of them are 14. So, what the hell does this translate to? Naylor thinks incest is cool? Naylor thinks 10- or 14-year olds having sex is cool?


Well the only thing that could be said to defend Naylor here is that kids are having sex at younger ages nowadays, there are problems with underage pregnencies and all that. So its not like it would be a terribly uncommon theme in stories about growing up.

... but the whole incest thing ....who the fuck knows. I'd rather not even dwell on that one.
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The New Meat
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Posted: 10/3/2004 3:54:31 AM     Post subject:  

First off, gotta say thanks for all the kind words (Assuming that Computolio is refering to the article and not the comic. Because I can't imagine the comic being rad by any stretch of th imagination.)

As for the underage sex thing, I agree, it's really hard to see how that fits into Naylor's worldview. It doesn't seem to mesh with his whole wacko conservative mindset but neither does he seem to be condemning it.

A couple people have speculated, and I think Naylor himself has admitted on occasion, that the comic is semi-autobiolgraphical. Personally, I suspect that the whole underage incest angle is one of those autobiographical moments. Its one of those things that's so close to the author that he can't separate himself enough to see how fucked up it is...so instead you get this creepy rationalizing storyline that goes against everything else he seems to stand for.

In conclusion: I think he fucked his sister. But I could be wrong. Hopefully.
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Big Evil Ogre
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Posted: 10/3/2004 4:19:47 AM     Post subject: Re: Jay Naylor's "Better Days" deconstructed  

I am thinking (Hoping actually) that Fisk's sex with his sister is going to have a moral to it that speaks "Don't do this! It's wrong! See what happened to Fisk? He was severely punished" type of thing.
I am waiting to see what happens for a while, but I do beleive in this fandom it COULD be something that he may think cool. I'd be terribly disappointed if that were the case. But me, ask the Outsider, am sometimes too trusting and carry too much hope sometimes.

Two days ago, I was sufficiently bored to read Jay Naylor's Better Days in its entirety. I've read bits and pieces of it before, but swallowing the whole thing in one go made me conclude that it's a very fucked up comic, and I started to think up a long rant about it with the intent of posting it on this forum.

But lo and behold, The New Meat beat me to it and has written a Better Days critique for CYD that outdoes anything I could have come up with. Go read it if you haven't already!

There was one aspect of Better Days that The New Meat did not mention in his article, though, one that really struck me, so here you go:

Quick recap: Better Days is the (seemingly semi-autobiograpic) coming-af-age story of Jay Naylor's alter ego Fisk. Like The New Meat points out, Better Days functions as a vehicle for Naylor's personal views on, well, anything. You can bet that when a "sympathetic" Better Days character says or does something, it's because Naylor thinks such opinion or action is right, just and good. (If you doubt that the opinions found in the comic are really Naylor's own, try reading Naylor's livejournal - that'll remove any doubt.)

The odd aspect I mentioned is Fisk's age. His opinions on war, relationships etc. are opinions one would expect to hear from someone, oh, Naylor's age (if they're immature, that is) - not a kid who is 11 or whatever age Fisk is at those exact chapters of Better Days.

The New Meat's bid that Naylor is using the "wise beyond his years" cliché seems convincing. This can be said to work when it comes to talk (well, it doesn't really work in Better Days, but it works very well in, say, Peanuts) - but it makes no sense when it comes to physical actions. I mean, what about the sex? Fisk had sex with a sexually aggressive black, sorry, hyena girl when he was 10 - she was 11. In the most recent Better Days pages, Fisk and his sister Lucy have sex - both of them are 14. So, what the hell does this translate to? Naylor thinks incest is cool? Naylor thinks 10- or 14-year olds having sex is cool?

I'm at a loss here. What is Naylor's point in having children have sex in his comic? Is he doing it for shock effect - to be edgy and controversial? Is it a totally misunderstood and fucked up varitety of the "wise beyond his years" thing? Are 14-year old girls Naylor's idea of hot & sexy? Or did he, because Better Days in a manner of speaking is about himself, simply forget the implications of Fisk being a child?

If anyone has any idea, any suggestion at all, I'd like to read it, because this particular aspect of Better Days seems to be incompatible not only with societal standards but with everything else in the comic as well.
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Chris Baird
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Posted: 10/3/2004 5:34:32 AM     Post subject:  

Man, it such a prime example of fuckheadedness on Naylor's part... He's got 2 out of 3 storylines basically saying, "America's servicemen and women want to affirm that you, Fisk, are one of the most right-thinking and well-together kids in the history of the species. In fact, youre so right-thinking and well-together, you could fuck your sister and it would still be awesome! I'll even put up money for you to star in a kiddyporno, and my friends in the service will be able to get GWB to sign the video cover! You're that fucking right-thinking and well-together, Fisk!"

Bet's On for Lucy getting pregnant.
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Anonymous
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Posted: 10/3/2004 6:13:27 AM     Post subject:  

Bet's On for Lucy getting pregnant.

Bet's on for Lucy getting AIDS.
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Computolio
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Posted: 10/3/2004 6:50:22 AM     Post subject:  


A couple people have speculated, and I think Naylor himself has admitted on occasion, that the comic is semi-autobiolgraphical. Personally, I suspect that the whole underage incest angle is one of those autobiographical moments. Its one of those things that's so close to the author that he can't separate himself enough to see how fucked up it is...so instead you get this creepy rationalizing storyline that goes against everything else he seems to stand for.

In conclusion: I think he fucked his sister. But I could be wrong. Hopefully.


It has to be autobiographical in some spots. Furries just aren't that good at that kind of research; I've listened to enough Loveline(haha) to know that some aspects of the storyline just might be geniunely based on experience.

His comic has done a better job of serving as a window to the insides of the author's dysfunctional mind than any other furry comic has been. (Not a hard thing to do, really.) It's also interesting how it tries to elicit some sympathy, and then just keeps blowing it. All the random neocon diatribes, Fisk and the rest of his family going farther past the outer edge of dysfunction than outside stresses seem to be pushing them, and a few other things keep the response he's trying to achieve at bay. He's trying to put both himself and others at fault for all the nastiness that goes on; unable to settle the question of who is more responsible in the end.

The litmus test for a truly fascinating furry fuckup is that he'd be fucked in the head even WITHOUT the furry fetish, and we seem to be staring at a prime example of just such a person.
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Michael Hirtes
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Posted: 10/3/2004 7:24:53 AM     Post subject: Re: Jay Naylor's "Better Days" deconstructed  

But dude! He can eat ham while Jews cannot! He has teh mad ham eating skilz!

And regarding Jay Naylor:

Somewhere out in a cemetery near London, the tomb of Sigmund Freud explodes in a shower of sparks and flame.
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Rankin
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Posted: 10/3/2004 7:25:38 AM     Post subject:  

Oh god. I read a bit of Better Days long ago... about the Shanikwa time, and sent it to Josh Z. as a joke.

That poor bastard IM'd me on Thursday and said "Fisk is going to fuck his sister." Of course, it took a couple of seconds to comprehend what the hell he was going on about..

In essence, I think I can take it down to even a more base level - Naylor can't stop drawing porn. It's what he does, and what his (at least old) reader base has come to expect - and not wanting to disappoint (lacking some rant beyond those he's already done), he tosses in some porn to keep people looking at it, hoping that he'll break down and draw some dick again.

...or maybe he's just lustful for anything that's dumb and has boobs.

I really can't say for certain, but I had to laugh at the commentary at the bottom of that page...

Now, imagine if Naylor and Bernal started a new comic... or better, don't.
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Sehvekah
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Posted: 10/3/2004 7:46:30 AM     Post subject:  

Now, imagine if Naylor and Bernal started a new comic... or better, don't.


That's like saying "don't think of 10 year-old incesterous mashed doughnut vaginas".
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Rankin
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Posted: 10/3/2004 8:09:02 AM     Post subject:  

Now, imagine if Naylor and Bernal started a new comic... or better, don't.


That's like saying "don't think of 10 year-old incesterous mashed doughnut vaginas".





Mike: You have to ask yourself... is that a baster in the dish to the side? Well... IS IT? IS IT REALLY?
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The Outsider
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Posted: 10/3/2004 11:06:35 AM     Post subject:  

That poor bastard IM'd me on Thursday and said "Fisk is going to fuck his sister." Of course, it took a couple of seconds to comprehend what the hell he was going on about..


Ogre told me the same thing and my thought was "oh, he wouldn't go THAT far." I should've listened to Ogre.

Hokay, my take on Naylor. I met him in February at a convention. Good artist, crummy person.


The Outsider
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Chris Baird
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Posted: 10/3/2004 12:12:37 PM     Post subject:  

Bet's On for Lucy getting pregnant.

Bet's on for Lucy getting AIDS.

oniii-channnnnnn!!!!!
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The Outsider
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Posted: 10/3/2004 4:22:29 PM     Post subject: Re: Jay Naylor's "Better Days" deconstructed  



Well...I could ink that illo (and better than Naylor).


The Outsider
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SLaitila
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Posted: 10/3/2004 4:49:18 PM     Post subject:  

Crappy sketch, my butt got numb because of bad ergonomy and I passed the inking for now. Will ink it laters.



Styx reference is kinda old but it came semi-accidentally.
It's also insane and makes absolutely no sense.
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Kadius
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Posted: 10/3/2004 5:19:28 PM     Post subject:  

Now, imagine if Naylor and Bernal started a new comic... or better, don't.
*Head explodes*

I've also read 'better days'. It lost all it's credibility to me when he had a 12 year old spouting of intellectual things alot of adults aren't capable of.
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Rankin
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Posted: 10/3/2004 5:20:16 PM     Post subject:  



See, no, no, you have it wrong. Gonterman can only imply sex - he can't draw it. Even though he's tried. Regardless, kudos for working in all of the recent forum blathering. The splattered buns and the condom... for the love of darkness.

...Ewwwwwwwwww...

Ok, I just watched jumalauta... and I am xenophobic. You Finns are all fucking weird.
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Josh Z.
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Posted: 10/3/2004 5:30:34 PM     Post subject:  

Yeah, I had the bad luck to start reading Better Days. Despite all the kooky political leanings which I don't give a fuck about, it was a decent strip that wasn't too horribly perverted. Well, not anymore.

Also, Naylor a good artist?



Sure, as long as he's not drawing HUMANS. Yeck. I guess he should stick to what he knows.

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Michael Hirtes
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Posted: 10/3/2004 5:43:57 PM     Post subject:  


If this pic alone doesn't become a huge metaphoric meathook that snags Jay by the skull and drags him here into CYD like a huge loaf of ham (Mmmmm......haaaaaaaaaam), then I don't know what will.
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MagKnightX
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Posted: 10/3/2004 5:56:33 PM     Post subject:  

I would just like to say that Jay Naylor most certainly does not represent the Fascis... I mean the conservative Republicans.

Also, Jay's comic is crap and the message in TNM's article was lost inbetween the shouts of "REPUBLICANS ARE TEH EEBIL."
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Donotsue
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Posted: 10/3/2004 5:57:54 PM     Post subject:  

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The New Meat
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Posted: 10/3/2004 7:00:33 PM     Post subject:  


Also, Jay's comic is crap and the message in TNM's article was lost inbetween the shouts of "REPUBLICANS ARE TEH EEBIL."


But that was the message of the article.
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SLaitila
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Posted: 10/3/2004 7:40:55 PM     Post subject:  


See, no, no, you have it wrong. Gonterman can only imply sex - he can't draw it. Even though he's tried. Regardless, kudos for working in all of the recent forum blathering. The splattered buns and the condom... for the love of darkness.


Gonterman was the only way to end that.


Ok, I just watched jumalauta... and I am xenophobic. You Finns are all fucking weird.


That long-haired guy was planning to buy a digital camera a few years back. It all went somewhat downhill from there. I think I have no choice but to post the link to the video.

www.cc.puv.fi/~e0300312/jumalauta.mpg

sloppy translation of the song. The finnish word order in a sentence is quite close to the way Yoda talks:

The doorbell rings it's saturday morning
I was drunk last night and someone dares to wake me
a man and a woman with a pile of watchtowers
asking if you're afraid of the armageddon
(spoken)
Good morning, do you mind if we disturb you a bit, hopefully we did not wake you up.
(jehovah part)
jehovah do you want to talk of
join our happy little commune
take this piece of information
it will teach you about the afterlife
(low part)
to heaven you will
never ascend
(manic)
without us
(chorus)
God damnit the jehovas are ringing the bell again
of course, always when you're hung over

Again the bell ringing i'm losing my nerves
the next bastard's gonna get a boot on their head
another team at the same pit stop
doing some kind of convertion orienteering

Good morning...

do you know why you've walk on this world
the meaning of life do you search for
we have one good answer
your troubles will it take away

happy you will, never be
without us

(chorus)
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Kadius
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Posted: 10/3/2004 8:09:44 PM     Post subject:  

Ok, I just watched jumalauta... and I am xenophobic. You Finns are all fucking weird.


That long-haired guy was planning to buy a digital camera a few years back. It all went somewhat downhill from there. I think I have no choice but to post the link to the video.

www.cc.puv.fi/~e0300312/jumalauta.mpg
Very wtf. Those damn Jehovas.
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SLaitila
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Posted: 10/3/2004 8:18:56 PM     Post subject:  

Yeah, I made the tune after I got a tad pissed of being woken up in the middle of alcohol-addled sex dreams and reminded (just a bout two days after the madrid terrorist attack) that i ought to be afraid of terrorists.
Let's just say we finns are almost as crazy as the japanese. A good proof of that would be the spede movies and uuno turhapuro.
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Rankin
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Posted: 10/3/2004 8:59:07 PM     Post subject:  

Let's just say we finns are almost as crazy as the japanese. A good proof of that would be the spede movies and uuno turhapuro.


I had to remind myself that you're a finn, because for a moment, your last "smiling nekkid kitty" face really reminded me of this guy's oekakis:



... then I realized that it still doesn't matter.

Oh, and I figured out what I did with my retarded postings. I've been modifying an SA firefox extension to work for CYD... and I fucked up big time. It posts to CYD, but still says it's SA. Of course, I changed the forum numerics and the phpbb vs vbulletin style, but changing the proper text so I might know it? Why... that's superficial. Dumbass.
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M0us3_Zero
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Posted: 10/3/2004 9:13:09 PM     Post subject:  

You know, for the sheer awesomeness of Firefox, it sure needs alot of tweaking for your own personal surfing style.

But, I love it like that.

And sorry to have derailed the conversation, but I havent' read this scary tome from the depths of Mordor. Looks like I'm the better for it.
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Michael Hirtes
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Posted: 10/3/2004 9:41:15 PM     Post subject:  

I would just like to say that Jay Naylor most certainly does not represent the Fascis... I mean the conservative Republicans.

Also, Jay's comic is crap and the message in TNM's article was lost inbetween the shouts of "REPUBLICANS ARE TEH EEBIL."


If Jay ever does have the balls to show up here and spouts his usual Mel Gibsonesque batshittery, I hope Wayd is the first to educate him about REAL conservative values.
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 10/3/2004 10:34:07 PM     Post subject: Re: Jay Naylor's "Better Days" deconstructed  

Two days ago, I was sufficiently bored to read Jay Naylor's Better Days in its entirety. I've read bits and pieces of it before, but swallowing the whole thing in one go made me conclude that it's a very fucked up comic, and I started to think up a long rant about it with the intent of posting it on this forum.

But lo and behold, The New Meat beat me to it and has written a Better Days critique for CYD that outdoes anything I could have come up with. Go read it if you haven't already!

There was one aspect of Better Days that The New Meat did not mention in his article, though, one that really struck me, so here you go:

Quick recap: Better Days is the (seemingly semi-autobiograpic) coming-af-age story of Jay Naylor's alter ego Fisk. Like The New Meat points out, Better Days functions as a vehicle for Naylor's personal views on, well, anything. You can bet that when a "sympathetic" Better Days character says or does something, it's because Naylor thinks such opinion or action is right, just and good. (If you doubt that the opinions found in the comic are really Naylor's own, try reading Naylor's livejournal - that'll remove any doubt.)

The odd aspect I mentioned is Fisk's age. His opinions on war, relationships etc. are opinions one would expect to hear from someone, oh, Naylor's age (if they're immature, that is) - not a kid who is 11 or whatever age Fisk is at those exact chapters of Better Days.

The New Meat's bid that Naylor is using the "wise beyond his years" cliché seems convincing. This can be said to work when it comes to talk (well, it doesn't really work in Better Days, but it works very well in, say, Peanuts) - but it makes no sense when it comes to physical actions. I mean, what about the sex? Fisk had sex with a sexually aggressive black, sorry, hyena girl when he was 10 - she was 11. In the most recent Better Days pages, Fisk and his sister Lucy have sex - both of them are 14. So, what the hell does this translate to? Naylor thinks incest is cool? Naylor thinks 10- or 14-year olds having sex is cool?

I'm at a loss here. What is Naylor's point in having children have sex in his comic? Is he doing it for shock effect - to be edgy and controversial? Is it a totally misunderstood and fucked up varitety of the "wise beyond his years" thing? Are 14-year old girls Naylor's idea of hot & sexy? Or did he, because Better Days in a manner of speaking is about himself, simply forget the implications of Fisk being a child?

If anyone has any idea, any suggestion at all, I'd like to read it, because this particular aspect of Better Days seems to be incompatible not only with societal standards but with everything else in the comic as well.


As much as I hate to point out this, but the way he's portraying sexuality among kids at the age they are in the story, isn't, unfortunately, a far fetched thing. Working with kids directly in this age group everyday, you'd be SHOCKED to hear the stuff kids today are talking about.

I mean, they've already layed claims to having boyfriends and girlfriends by the 4th grade and fight over such status. And I don't even want to talk about the unfortunately things I've already heard kids say among themselves about what they've done with how.

All just say this, if he's going for a realistic story like tell, using RL events that don't normally get talked about much in comics, well, he's not exactly making the stuff up.

Is it something i would want to do? No, no way, but can't say that the stuff he's writing about doesn't actually happen in RL either. Most RL comics are about more pleasant RL events, guess he's chosen to focus on the not so pretty aspects of RL. Shrug.

Only thing I can say is, if one doesn't like the material, well, don't view it. Shrug.
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 10/3/2004 10:44:44 PM     Post subject:  

Yeah, definatly a very good article.

Im also pretty (ok, very) left-wing so Id probably dislike the comic for a lot of the politics in it.

I still haven't read it at all other than the few pages that were linked here a while ago.
My old excuse was I was on dialup. Well, I have cable now.. so I cant really use that excuse anymore so I'll just say... 'gee one of these days Im going have to go thru and read Better Days'

I mean, what about the sex? Fisk had sex with a sexually aggressive black, sorry, hyena girl when he was 10 - she was 11. In the most recent Better Days pages, Fisk and his sister Lucy have sex - both of them are 14. So, what the hell does this translate to? Naylor thinks incest is cool? Naylor thinks 10- or 14-year olds having sex is cool?


Well the only thing that could be said to defend Naylor here is that kids are having sex at younger ages nowadays, there are problems with underage pregnencies and all that. So its not like it would be a terribly uncommon theme in stories about growing up.

... but the whole incest thing ....who the fuck knows. I'd rather not even dwell on that one.
:cry:



I read the article and couldn't take much from it only because it's not meant to be objective. I'm a registered Democrat but don't consider myself a leftwing liberal. If anything I'm moderate. Reading the article I lose the ability to see most of its points, which I do agree with, only because it's a bit too slanted to the opposite side, making it nothing more than perhaps polar of what Jay sometimes writes about.

Without an objective outside look, hard to take the critique at its fullest, even though, again, I do agree with some of it and do have issues with some of his political views as well.

Bottom line is though, his audience in that case is not Lefties. If that's what one wants then you probably should read Ozzy and Millie, which can be just as if not more so preachy on the opposite end of the political spectrum.

The more resent stories have been been better because they are that, stories, with little political preaching going on in it, (And don't think as a teacher, the one with the teacher didn't bug me a little, but then again, who's to say that he didn't actually run into teachers like that in his life either. It is possible, that I have no doubt).

Finally, I try to stay away from taking articles written by artists who also participate in the same kind of medium that they are doing a critique on. It just seems like professional competition bashing to me, even if it's not meant to be.

JMHO.
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 10/3/2004 10:45:51 PM     Post subject:  

First off, gotta say thanks for all the kind words (Assuming that Computolio is refering to the article and not the comic. Because I can't imagine the comic being rad by any stretch of th imagination.)

As for the underage sex thing, I agree, it's really hard to see how that fits into Naylor's worldview. It doesn't seem to mesh with his whole wacko conservative mindset but neither does he seem to be condemning it.

A couple people have speculated, and I think Naylor himself has admitted on occasion, that the comic is semi-autobiolgraphical. Personally, I suspect that the whole underage incest angle is one of those autobiographical moments. Its one of those things that's so close to the author that he can't separate himself enough to see how fucked up it is...so instead you get this creepy rationalizing storyline that goes against everything else he seems to stand for.

In conclusion: I think he fucked his sister. But I could be wrong. Hopefully.


I don't even think Jay has a sister.
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 10/3/2004 10:48:17 PM     Post subject: Re: Jay Naylor's "Better Days" deconstructed  

But dude! He can eat ham while Jews cannot! He has teh mad ham eating skilz!
.


What??? That fits the discussion how?
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 10/3/2004 10:56:19 PM     Post subject:  

I would just like to say that Jay Naylor most certainly does not represent the Fascis... I mean the conservative Republicans.

Also, Jay's comic is crap and the message in TNM's article was lost inbetween the shouts of "REPUBLICANS ARE TEH EEBIL."


If Jay ever does have the balls to show up here and spouts his usual Mel Gibsonesque batshittery, I hope Wayd is the first to educate him about REAL conservative values.


The same probably could be said about not inviting him here, as was done to me, to express his point of view and why he's doing what he's doing rather than speculate about it.

Often it's easy just to make up the facts rather than ask the simple question of why. And I say this, and I don't even agree with many of the issues he does, but am at least open minded to get his point of view on them.

Just fire the guy an e-mail and ask him? I'm sure it's not an issue of balls at al, what's to be afraid of of here?

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE
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Donotsue
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Posted: 10/3/2004 11:00:15 PM     Post subject:  

This is where Mike'd say SHUT UP TUMOR!!! and Compu would tellem to take it to AFF! and Skunkfuckers inc.'d do sumfin ghey and
Rankin'd call him a hoe!
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 10/3/2004 11:05:05 PM     Post subject:  

This is where Mike'd say SHUT UP TUMOR!!! and Compu would tellem to take it to AFF! and Skunkfuckers inc.'d do sumfin ghey and
Rankin'd call him a hoe!


LOL. Thank you, that saves a lot of time (Nice Bender avatar btw).

Now onto the discussion at hand.
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Anonymous
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Posted: 10/3/2004 11:36:06 PM     Post subject:  

AAAAAGHAGHAGH T3h QUINTUPLE POSTING </idiot>
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Rankin
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Posted: 10/3/2004 11:36:16 PM     Post subject: Re: Jay Naylor's "Better Days" deconstructed  

As much as I hate to point out this, but the way he's portraying sexuality among kids at the age they are in the story, isn't, unfortunately, a far fetched thing. Working with kids directly in this age group everyday, you'd be SHOCKED to hear the stuff kids today are talking about.


Yes, the real world does tend to skew things and forbid, this next generation, and last, maybe second last for some, are nothing like when we grew up. Hell, I'll be the first to admit I lost my virginity at 15 - but I sure as fuck didn't screw my sister, and I'll be damned if I'd be broadcasting that idelogy for the world to view.

This, plain and simple, was a story that had no need to be written. I stand firm in my belief that Jay just doesn't have the ability to convey a story without being a ravenous patriot of THE TRUTH, or a dick in any hole. This may not be a fair assessment, but have you seen any of his non-furry comics? Purile, at best.

I'll skip the debate of his racial profiling into specific species and sects. We've been over this before. Here's the premise: Girl finds out boyfriend was using her; she finds comfort in her brother; he sicks it to her.

Compare this to say, Kit and Kay - at least there's no bullshit or pretention that there's going to be a storyline - it's just mindless sex and horribly cutesy figures.

A friend of mine summed it up earlier with "I figured it wouldn't take him long. His character was banging Lucy in 'Badly Drawn Kitties'." I broke down and read some BDK. The title is quite apropos - with just as weak of a plot. However, I doubt Mat is psychotic. :wink:

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Michael Hirtes
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Posted: 10/4/2004 12:02:46 AM     Post subject: Re: Jay Naylor's "Better Days" deconstructed  

But dude! He can eat ham while Jews cannot! He has teh mad ham eating skilz!
.


What??? That fits the discussion how?


LOL! N00B!
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Michael Hirtes
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Posted: 10/4/2004 12:03:52 AM     Post subject:  

This is where Mike'd say SHUT UP TUMOR!!!


Nah. He's no fun anymore.
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Paul
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Posted: 10/4/2004 12:04:38 AM     Post subject:  

As much as I hate to point out this, but the way he's portraying sexuality among kids at the age they are in the story, isn't, unfortunately, a far fetched thing. Working with kids directly in this age group everyday, you'd be SHOCKED to hear the stuff kids today are talking about.

I mean, they've already layed claims to having boyfriends and girlfriends by the 4th grade and fight over such status. And I don't even want to talk about the unfortunately things I've already heard kids say among themselves about what they've done with how.

All just say this, if he's going for a realistic story like tell, using RL events that don't normally get talked about much in comics, well, he's not exactly making the stuff up.

No offense, but you're missing the point. Like mouse wrote, some kids have sex, and it's not unheard of that this subject would enter a story about growing up. But like The New Meat and myself have pointed out, the "sympathetic" Better Days characters are mouthpieces for Naylor's own opinions on right and wrong. This is especially true for Fisk. Notice how Fisk never makes any real mistakes - bad things happening are always the result of other people screwing up. Fisk never does anything that Naylor deems to be wrong (again, check his livejournal and compare Naylor's writings on morals and politics with Fisk's musings in the comic - exactly the same mindset. Naylor = Fisk).

The episode with the hyena girl is actually played very straightforward - something happening to Fisk that he learns from. Fair enough. But the recent Fisk/Lucy intimacy just reeks of attempted titillation. There's just too many lovingly rendered shots of Lucy looking sexy and/or squirming in orgasm. Instead of being a part of a story, it becomes a point in itself. Like Rankin wrote, Naylor probably can't stop drawing porn, even when it effectively ends up as softcore kiddie porn.

So, unless Naylor all of a sudden has changed his entire modus operandi when it comes to writing Better Days, it's pretty safe to conclude that fucking your 14 year old sister is A-OK with Naylor. If this is not the case, then why the hell is the episode presented in teh hawt sexxors way it is?

Bottom line is though, his audience in that case is not Lefties. If that's what one wants then you probably should read Ozzy and Millie, which can be just as if not more so preachy on the opposite end of the political spectrum.

Simpson lets his political leanings shine through his comic, but he never lets them get in the way of his jokes. With Naylor, the story often has no other purpose than to serve as a means for communicating his political diatribes. A big difference IMHO.

But dude! He can eat ham while Jews cannot! He has teh mad ham eating skilz!

What??? That fits the discussion how?

Michael's referring to this little gem from Naylor's livejournal:
I'm thankful for the ham in the fridge that will last me for days, and I'm thankful for Jesus who lets me eat the ham, while Jews cannot.

See this thread for further edification.

A friend of mine summed it up earlier with "I figured it wouldn't take him long. His character was banging Lucy in 'Badly Drawn Kitties'." I broke down and read some BDK. The title is quite apropos - with just as weak of a plot. However, I doubt Mat is psychotic. :wink:

Come to think of it, it's interesting that Sherer had Fisk fucking Lucy before Naylor did. I can't help but wonder if Naylor let Sherer know that he intended Fisk and Lucy to become lovers. After all, it would be pretty weird if something that was nothing more than a source of jokes in Badly Drawn Kitties would be inspiration for something very serious in Better Days, especially considering Naylor's later falling-out with Sherer. Then again, who knows how inspiration works. The creepyness remains though. To Sherer, Fisk/Lucy was a dirty joke; to Naylor, it's obviously something quite different.
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The Outsider
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Posted: 10/4/2004 1:03:46 AM     Post subject:  


If this pic alone doesn't become a huge metaphoric meathook that snags Jay by the skull and drags him here into CYD like a huge loaf of ham (Mmmmm......haaaaaaaaaam), then I don't know what will.


Actually I'm surprised he isn't already in here.


The Outsider
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mouse
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Posted: 10/4/2004 2:26:18 AM     Post subject:  

To Sherer, Fisk/Lucy was a dirty joke; to Naylor, it's obviously something quite different.


(Im not totally sure who "Lucy" is... is thats Fisk's sister in the comic? and its someone else's character?)

After all, it would be pretty weird if something that was nothing more than a source of jokes in Badly Drawn Kitties would be inspiration for something very serious in Better Days, especially considering Naylor's later falling-out with Sherer. Then again, who knows how inspiration works. The creepyness remains though.


Now that was fucking funny.

Correct my timeline if I am wrong here:

Hirtes' ham thread got Sherer's attention and he flames CYD on his group. Someone on the BDK group finally snaps bitches him out. Everyone on the group assumed it was people from here infiltrating the group - that was when CYD managed to invade a group somehow with no one doing anything. And then within a few weeks or whatever Sherer gets sick of all Naylor's bullshit and bitches him out.
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 10/4/2004 2:58:55 AM     Post subject:  


No offense, but you're missing the point. Like mouse wrote, some kids have sex, and it's not unheard of that this subject would enter a story about growing up. But like The New Meat and myself have pointed out, the "sympathetic" Better Days characters are mouthpieces for Naylor's own opinions on right and wrong. This is especially true for Fisk. Notice how Fisk never makes any real mistakes - bad things happening are always the result of other people screwing up. Fisk never does anything that Naylor deems to be wrong (again, check his livejournal and compare Naylor's writings on morals and politics with Fisk's musings in the comic - exactly the same mindset. Naylor = Fisk).

The episode with the hyena girl is actually played very straightforward - something happening to Fisk that he learns from. Fair enough. But the recent Fisk/Lucy intimacy just reeks of attempted titillation. There's just too many lovingly rendered shots of Lucy looking sexy and/or squirming in orgasm. Instead of being a part of a story, it becomes a point in itself. Like Rankin wrote, Naylor probably can't stop drawing porn, even when it effectively ends up as softcore kiddie porn.

So, unless Naylor all of a sudden has changed his entire modus operandi when it comes to writing Better Days, it's pretty safe to conclude that fucking your 14 year old sister is A-OK with Naylor. If this is not the case, then why the hell is the episode presented in teh hawt sexxors way it is?

Well the part about going to read his LJ falls under my personal, "I'm not seeking out stuff that I know ahead of time would probably piss me off" rule. I don't need to see it to know I wouldn't like it. As to the Fisk the character doesn't seem to have a reaction, shrug, I guess all I can say is we'd just have to wait to see how the story ends rather than jump to the conclusion before it's completed. Shrug. And modus operandim seem to change. I used to think many of the people here were kinda crazy prior to my starting to post and understand most of you better, so, the way one is perseved in one form of writing may not be the case in another afterall.

I'm not saying I got love lost for his political views or the way he goes about expressing them, but I'm not going to totally condemn him for having different ones than myself either. I'd rather just avoid going to places he views them and ultimately I live a happier life.


Simpson lets his political leanings shine through his comic, but he never lets them get in the way of his jokes. With Naylor, the story often has no other purpose than to serve as a means for communicating his political diatribes. A big difference IMHO.

Well, I don't know about that. For awhile there it got so thick you had to wear boots and I'm of the same political party. Heck I stopped reading it for awhile until he moved on to something else (I can't remember what triggered it, think the last general elections/ 9/11, or when Bush was first elected. Either way, I perfer to be entertained from a comic, not preached to regardless of the political lean.


But dude! He can eat ham while Jews cannot! He has teh mad ham eating skilz!

What??? That fits the discussion how?

Michael's referring to this little gem from Naylor's livejournal:
I'm thankful for the ham in the fridge that will last me for days, and I'm thankful for Jesus who lets me eat the ham, while Jews cannot.

See this thread for further edification.



Oh, figures. But see, that's my point, I never will understand why people will seek out things that will intentionally peeve them off. I mean, why would you, if you don't like the guy, bother reading his LJ anyway? There's just something odd about that behavior too, IMHO. I mean, that'd be like me seeking out Klan websites then posting about how I hate them all the time.

A friend of mine summed it up earlier with "I figured it wouldn't take him long. His character was banging Lucy in 'Badly Drawn Kitties'." I broke down and read some BDK. The title is quite apropos - with just as weak of a plot. However, I doubt Mat is psychotic. :wink:

Come to think of it, it's interesting that Sherer had Fisk fucking Lucy before Naylor did. I can't help but wonder if Naylor let Sherer know that he intended Fisk and Lucy to become lovers. After all, it would be pretty weird if something that was nothing more than a source of jokes in Badly Drawn Kitties would be inspiration for something very serious in Better Days, especially considering Naylor's later falling-out with Sherer. Then again, who knows how inspiration works. The creepyness remains though. To Sherer, Fisk/Lucy was a dirty joke; to Naylor, it's obviously something quite different.

Well, the simple truth of that is, Fisk and Lucy were originally nothing more than net characters played on a muck. I believe they happened to look similar in design (well as simlilar as the two draw) and they were friends so they decided to join up and make them Brother and Sister. BDK was at one point associated with BD. BD was the past stories, BDK the present/future. But a disagreement of (Stupid proportions IMHO) caused them to go separate ways, BUT since they had joined up to let their characters be so intermixed, it wasn't the cleanest of splits. While Fisk could easily be written out of BD they were adults and adult siblings are always moving, Lucy the kid couldn't as easily up and dissappear from the stories of their past. What the final arrangement was met to continue with her use in BD, I don't know, but that's pretty much the story of Lucy and Fisk the characters.
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Michael Hirtes
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Posted: 10/4/2004 3:06:16 AM     Post subject:  

How much is Jay Nalor paying you to be his shill, Shawntae, or are you just being his shill for free?
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 10/4/2004 3:11:07 AM     Post subject:  

How much is Jay Nalor paying you to be his shill, Shawntae, or are you just being his shill for free?


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Kadius
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Posted: 10/4/2004 3:13:48 AM     Post subject:  

How much is Jay Nalor paying you to be his shill, Shawntae, or are you just being his shill for free?

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE


Free.
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Anonymous
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Posted: 10/4/2004 4:33:31 AM     Post subject:  

His stuff doesn't "peeve" us, if you've been around long enough you'd realize most of us have a "trainwreck" attitude toward this crap. You know it's awful, but you're going to watch it anyway, in this case it's quite 'lol-full.'
Take it like this.... "Incest is wrong... but Naylor is petty and entertaining to watch"
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Computolio
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Posted: 10/4/2004 4:46:45 AM     Post subject:  


Well, the simple truth of that is, Fisk and Lucy were originally nothing more than net characters played on a muck. I believe they happened to look similar in design (well as simlilar as the two draw) and they were friends so they decided to join up and make them Brother and Sister. BDK was at one point associated with BD. BD was the past stories, BDK the present/future. But a disagreement of (Stupid proportions IMHO) caused them to go separate ways, BUT since they had joined up to let their characters be so intermixed, it wasn't the cleanest of splits. While Fisk could easily be written out of BD they were adults and adult siblings are always moving, Lucy the kid couldn't as easily up and dissappear from the stories of their past. What the final arrangement was met to continue with her use in BD, I don't know, but that's pretty much the story of Lucy and Fisk the characters.


I should have fucking guessed that they came from a MUCK. MUCKs always seem to figure in whenever furries try to write anything.
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SLaitila
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Posted: 10/4/2004 5:59:40 AM     Post subject:  

What strikes me though, it seems as every BD storyline has, at least a sexual undertone if not a "stick dick in something, problem go away" solution.
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The New Meat
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Posted: 10/4/2004 8:06:38 AM     Post subject:  

I read the article and couldn't take much from it only because it's not meant to be objective.


I'm confused by this. Since when have we pretended that we're objective here? I said right up front that I was a crazy hippie liberal. Are you saying that I shouldn't have looked at "Better Days" through that lens? What instead? From a politically neutral standpoint? That would be an exciting read - "Naylor says some stuff here which some people might disagree with but that others will agree with. And over here he says some other stuff that some people agree with and others with disagree with."

If we were discussing Naylor's story-telling abilities or artistic talents, yeah, then we can apply some objective criteria. But political opinions? Better Days is a political strip and I submit it's impossible for the dissector's politics to not influence the dissection in some way. I could have put on an act and written a calmer, more clinical article, and, yes, maybe that would be more convincing to some people. If you're the sort who believes that true objectivity is possible and that the fact that I have a political leaning of my own will automatically render all my opinions on the other side irrelevant. I very passionately disagree with Naylor and it's hard not to get pissy when I see ideas that I don't just disagree with but that I find morally repugnant.

Just to be clear: I don't have any problem with Naylor holding his own opinions. I just happen to think that they're stupid and dangerous. And here in America, I'm just as free to say that he's full of shit as he is to express his dumbass ideas in the first place.


You say that Naylor's portrayal of underage sexuality is pretty spot-on, but I refuse to believe that there are legions of preteens out there who want to boff their sisters.


I'm a registered Democrat but don't consider myself a leftwing liberal. If anything I'm moderate.


Well, let's agree to disagree then.
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 10/4/2004 11:39:34 AM     Post subject:  

I read the article and couldn't take much from it only because it's not meant to be objective.


You say that Naylor's portrayal of underage sexuality is pretty spot-on, but I refuse to believe that there are legions of preteens out there who want to boff their sisters.




Just to be clear, not once did I say that his portrayal of underage sexuality was pretty "Spot-on". I suggested that the way he's doing it isn't far fetched as possibly happening. And no, LIke you I do not go for the incest angle.
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Shmorky
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Posted: 10/4/2004 12:58:44 PM     Post subject:  

The problem is he's drawing it. You know that he's getting pleasure just thinking about it happening. That comic is gross he's gross, okay.
I don't see his comic having any redeeming qualities. It just seems to be him drawing out his boyhood desires that he most likely wanted to do but never got to do. Of course there's nothing too unrealistic about the comic. That isn't the problem.
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Paul
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Posted: 10/4/2004 2:11:40 PM     Post subject:  

(Im not totally sure who "Lucy" is... is thats Fisk's sister in the comic? and its someone else's character?)

Lucy was created by Mat Sherer. In both Badly Drawn Kitties and Better Days Fisk and Lucy are twins.

Correct my timeline if I am wrong here:

Hirtes' ham thread got Sherer's attention and he flames CYD on his group. Someone on the BDK group finally snaps bitches him out. Everyone on the group assumed it was people from here infiltrating the group - that was when CYD managed to invade a group somehow with no one doing anything. And then within a few weeks or whatever Sherer gets sick of all Naylor's bullshit and bitches him out.

I don't know about that part. Sherer doesn't like CYD, that's a matter of record. As for Sherer and Naylor falling out, it started when Sherer posted a comment on his site where he spoke out in favour of gay marriage. Naylor is against that - but the thing with Naylor is, not only is he right wing, he is certain that his political convictions are a result of him knowing The Facts, and anyone having other opinions is someone who doesn't know The Facts - someone who is, quite simply, ignorant and/or stupid (I'm not making this up, Naylor has written it pretty much in those words). So, when Sherer turned out be a liberal, Naylor let it be publicly known that Sherer was a stupid git. Their relationship disintegrated fast from there.

I never will understand why people will seek out things that will intentionally peeve them off. I mean, why would you, if you don't like the guy, bother reading his LJ anyway?

For the record, I don't seek out livejournal writings I know in advance I won't like. It's like this: I read Better Days and found that it contained a lot of right wing diatribes. I wanted to find out to what extent those were Naylor's own ideas. Theoretically, he could be a flaming commie writing a nasty satire on right wing thinking. I know that's not the case, as I've read the other threads on Naylor in this forum, but I wanted to know exactly how much of the diatribes were his own rather than something written to fit his characters. So, off to his livejournal to check. And the thing is, not only are the opinions expressed by Fisk and other characters (like Fisk's dad's chess-playing army buddy) exactly compatible with Naylor's own, they are written exactly alike. Naylor doesn't write for his characters, they have the same "tone of voice" that he does. In conclusion, the claim made by The New Meat and yours truly that Fisk = Naylor stands. After that, I really have no desire to read Naylor's livejournal anymore. Not because it pissed me off, it really didn't - at most, it made me go: :roll:
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Jerry Collins
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Posted: 10/4/2004 3:05:25 PM     Post subject: re:Jay naylor, his "art"hispolitics,his life  

In the words of Ade Edmunson's Eddy Elizibeth Hitler:"BOLLOX,BOLLOX,BOLLOX."....eat more pork Jay...so you can have a Heart attack and do us all a favour!..No wait,you'd have to have a heart in the first place to have a heart attack wouldn't you?that's all the world needs..a right wing extreamist clone of Taral Wayne..and folks,that's what Jay-boy is
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webkilla
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Posted: 10/4/2004 3:17:03 PM     Post subject:  

I think someone needs a hug...

Paul just needs a spanking.


I dont see what's so wrong with Better Days..., it's a furry slice-of-life comic - nothing else.

If Paul would mind reading what Jay has writen in his own forum then he would know that Jay doesn't exactly limit those of judaic belief to mice, he just showed ONE family of mice that happened to be so...

I cant help noticing that Paul mentions that Jay makes 'right wing' junk eihter... I think that Jay,if anything, just shows a realistic non-political view on the world. That some teacher goes a bit too far in her indoctrination, thats not new... I have one of those. She oppenly talks of her dislike of 'Dubya' (which I share) and many other things... she's also the RE teacher, which makes it all the better.

What Jay pictures in Better Days... is nothing out of the ordinary - things like that happen, he just posts it. I dont konw what Paul's problem is, but he should really consider trying some triple-X-lax to get all that BS out of his system...

A loyal Jay-walker
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Jerry Collins
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Posted: 10/4/2004 3:21:18 PM     Post subject: oh yeah?  

And just HOW much did Jay pay you to say that?
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SLaitila
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Posted: 10/4/2004 3:24:29 PM     Post subject:  

And just HOW much did Jay pay you to say that?


I'm afraid this person might be suffering of a pretty common disease, "brown smelly lips."
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Paul
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Posted: 10/4/2004 3:52:19 PM     Post subject:  

If Paul would mind reading what Jay has writen in his own forum then he would know that Jay doesn't exactly limit those of judaic belief to mice, he just showed ONE family of mice that happened to be so...

I think you have The New Meat and me mixed up. Find out if you want to criticise him or me and get back to us, OK?

What Jay pictures in Better Days... is nothing out of the ordinary

Fucking your 14 year old sister is nothing out of the ordinary? I doubt we live on the same planet.
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Jerry Collins
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Posted: 10/4/2004 4:33:26 PM     Post subject: ARGH!YE BEAT ME TO IT!  

Well said Paul,well spoken!HUZZAH!
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Big Evil Ogre
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Posted: 10/4/2004 6:29:54 PM     Post subject:  

I have heard and seen issues with brothers and sisters underage "Practicing" on each other. Especially stories I heard from my Ex Girlfreind who was adopted, her brother was adopted pretty much at the same time. They learned that sometimes when that happens and two kids are taken into a home they may do that. Twins is a bit farther off the deep end, but I think it's close enough that blood related brothers and sisters, especially when they have a homelife like they do, will do it.
I do agree that it seems the whole thing seems to have sexual undertones that I disagree with as far as storyline goes. If it's meant to be a soap opera type thing there's a lot of other avenues he can take, but chooses not to. (Which I also can understand why. I have been trying to write a story but it never works out, but I refuse to change the story. I know it's wrong, but I had my mind set on it.)
To ME Naylor is a goos storyteller and artist. But his story is guilty of the same thing that Mike Curtis is guilty of. There is NO other purpose other than to use the comic as a soap box on which to preach thier opinions on. SFA is just Mikes way of CONSTANTLY affirming that it's okay to be gay, its okay to be bi, it's okay to have more than one lover (As if he's trying to convince himself as much as he's trying to convince others) and Jay is the same. He's CONSTANTLY trying to affirm his political standpoints, his standing on child sex, war. But he doesn't have the feel that he's trying to convince himself of what he beleives. So I have a LITTLE more respect for Naylor than I do for the Curtis Clan.

I read the article and couldn't take much from it only because it's not meant to be objective.


I'm confused by this. Since when have we pretended that we're objective here? I said right up front that I was a crazy hippie liberal. Are you saying that I shouldn't have looked at "Better Days" through that lens? What instead? From a politically neutral standpoint? That would be an exciting read - "Naylor says some stuff here which some people might disagree with but that others will agree with. And over here he says some other stuff that some people agree with and others with disagree with."

If we were discussing Naylor's story-telling abilities or artistic talents, yeah, then we can apply some objective criteria. But political opinions? Better Days is a political strip and I submit it's impossible for the dissector's politics to not influence the dissection in some way. I could have put on an act and written a calmer, more clinical article, and, yes, maybe that would be more convincing to some people. If you're the sort who believes that true objectivity is possible and that the fact that I have a political leaning of my own will automatically render all my opinions on the other side irrelevant. I very passionately disagree with Naylor and it's hard not to get pissy when I see ideas that I don't just disagree with but that I find morally repugnant.

Just to be clear: I don't have any problem with Naylor holding his own opinions. I just happen to think that they're stupid and dangerous. And here in America, I'm just as free to say that he's full of shit as he is to express his dumbass ideas in the first place.


You say that Naylor's portrayal of underage sexuality is pretty spot-on, but I refuse to believe that there are legions of preteens out there who want to boff their sisters.


I'm a registered Democrat but don't consider myself a leftwing liberal. If anything I'm moderate.


Well, let's agree to disagree then.
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Genghis
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Posted: 10/4/2004 7:05:35 PM     Post subject:  

I cant help noticing that Paul mentions that Jay makes 'right wing' junk eihter... I think that Jay,if anything, just shows a realistic non-political view on the world.
AAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Josh Z.
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Posted: 10/4/2004 8:00:41 PM     Post subject:  

Holy shit, halfheartedly browsing over Naylor's forum. Why are so many people so fucking eager to explain away INCEST? HELLO. BROTHERSISTER FUCKING. NOT RIGHT. WRONG. BAD. IF THERE WAS ONE WORD FOR IT, IT WOUDL BE LIKE... BADONG.

People commenting on how tastefully the INCEST was handled. ARGH.
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mouse
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Posted: 10/4/2004 8:11:29 PM     Post subject:  

What Jay pictures in Better Days... is nothing out of the ordinary - things like that happen, he just posts it. I dont konw what Paul's problem is, but he should really consider trying some triple-X-lax to get all that BS out of his system...

A loyal Jay-walker


I think Naylor's comic blows, and furthermore he should shut the fuck up with all the political garbage and incest and just get back to drawing decent furry pin ups. Thats seems to be his strong point.

Cuz when he has to do "plot" .. it just doesnt work out.
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Shmorky
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Posted: 10/4/2004 8:52:25 PM     Post subject:  

Holy shit, halfheartedly browsing over Naylor's forum. Why are so many people so fucking eager to explain away INCEST? HELLO. BROTHERSISTER FUCKING. NOT RIGHT. WRONG. BAD. IF THERE WAS ONE WORD FOR IT, IT WOUDL BE LIKE... BADONG.

People commenting on how tastefully the INCEST was handled. ARGH.


And here I thought THIS thread was a disaster.
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Kadius
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Posted: 10/4/2004 10:34:48 PM     Post subject:  

Holy shit, halfheartedly browsing over Naylor's forum. Why are so many people so fucking eager to explain away INCEST? HELLO. BROTHERSISTER FUCKING. NOT RIGHT. WRONG. BAD. IF THERE WAS ONE WORD FOR IT, IT WOUDL BE LIKE... BADONG.

People commenting on how tastefully the INCEST was handled. ARGH.
I actually looked through the forum you're talking about and saw the same thing. "Oh gawd, I wanted to see them fucking. That would've been HAWT." and such. I honestly think Naylor's fans would support ANYTHING he did.

Awesome movie, by the way.
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Shmeckopolis
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Posted: 10/5/2004 12:47:36 AM     Post subject:  

I think that Jay,if anything, just shows a realistic non-political view on the world.


This line alone is cracking me up.
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Rankin
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Posted: 10/5/2004 1:24:12 AM     Post subject:  

I smoke have incest no guns agenda.
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Shmeckopolis
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Posted: 10/5/2004 1:32:47 AM     Post subject:  

I have some issues with Naylor's comic, personally. For one, I'm a right-wing guy, and this guy's just chucked monkey poo in the face of the party. Makes the rest of us look bad by comparison, you see.

Also, I have a big problem with entertainment shoving politics down your throat. Mainly when it uses the guise of another form of entertainment. For instance, a political satire comic in the newspaper is fine, but if I read a comedy comic based around video games, I don't want my politics bashed, nor do I want it praised! I refer to Sore Thumbs in this instance, which is supposedly a video-game based webcomic, which opts instead to preach Michael Mooreism and equate Republicans with all that's wrong with the world; a mindset you'd expect from a middle school freshman (referring to the "all of these people or all who disagree with me are teh s uck" mindset).

Better Days also rubs me the wrong way. Not only due to Naylor's disgracement of his own political party with his ham-lust, but because it preaches politics on a soapbox. The preaching comes of as almost fourth-wall breaking, as well. ALso, the left-wing characters are almost parodying Better Days itself! I refer initially to the teacher walking in saying she's tired from watching the DNC all night. First off, the conventions hardly last all night, unless she got so pumped about the party that she watched the late-night reruns. Second, this line is used to establish her OMG SUPER-LIBERAL WAYS! FEL TEH FEEEEAR!

Also, he doesn't even effectively portray academic left-wing bias. It's hardly an elementary-school teacher punishing a student for right-wing views--considering that'd get a teacher FIRED! The left-wing bias lies in the opinions of university professors, and usually doesn't go any farther than a discussion--no one is repremanded for right-wing views, just debated. And may I say the Susuan B Anthony line was hilariously stupid.

Jay, you're making Anne Coulter look like Al Franken. Ease up.

So, let me conclude with a disclaimer; the views and opinions of Jay Naylor do not necissarily reflect those of the Republican Party. More like borrowing our opinions and taking them to new, bat-shit crazy levels. He's hurting his own party, really.
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Computolio
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Posted: 10/5/2004 1:40:44 AM     Post subject:  

WHOEVER YOU ARE, YOU SUCK

ALSO: HOW ARE WE THE "COMPETITION"
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MagKnightX
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Posted: 10/5/2004 1:53:42 AM     Post subject:  

Oh noes!

Oh noes!!!!

OH NOES!!!!!!

We've been insulted on teh INTARWEB!

Teh INTARWEB, for the love of darkness!!!
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21st Century Digital Boy
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Posted: 10/5/2004 1:54:52 AM     Post subject:  

I don't know about that part. Sherer doesn't like CYD, that's a matter of record. As for Sherer and Naylor falling out, it started when Sherer posted a comment on his site where he spoke out in favour of gay marriage. Naylor is against that - but the thing with Naylor is, not only is he right wing, he is certain that his political convictions are a result of him knowing The Facts, and anyone having other opinions is someone who doesn't know The Facts - someone who is, quite simply, ignorant and/or stupid (I'm not making this up, Naylor has written it pretty much in those words). So, when Sherer turned out be a liberal, Naylor let it be publicly known that Sherer was a stupid git. Their relationship disintegrated fast from there.


Waitwaitwait... Jay Naylor, who has drawn his alter-ego being FUCKED UP THE ASS, as well as FUCKING OTHER GUYS UP THE ASS, got pissed at someone for supporting gay rights? Damn, I really wish I could at least pretend to be surprised by this.
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Kadius
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Posted: 10/5/2004 2:17:17 AM     Post subject:  



You are the lowest form of life on Earth. You are not even human fucking beings! You are nothing but unorganized grabasstic pieces of amphibian shit! Because I am hard, you will not like me. But the more you hate me, the more you will learn. I am hard, but I am fair! There is no sexual bigotry here! I do not look down on lesbians, gays, Bi's or transexuals. Here you are all equally worthless! And my orders are to weed out all non-hackers who do not pack the gear to serve in my beloved internet! Do you maggots understand that?
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Rankin
Needs to get out more
Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 891

Posted: 10/5/2004 3:02:44 AM     Post subject:  

Jay, you're making Anne Coulter look like Al Franken. Ease up.



Mistah Schmeck, you use your tongue prettier than a two dollar whore..

What do you think of my MSPAINT DELICACY? I call it "Kit and Kay: Showing us the way". All of the same rampant sex, with only a slightly different political angle!



Shit, I'll have to test market this thing!
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The New Meat
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Posted: 10/5/2004 3:47:24 AM     Post subject:  

Well, the "Talk about Comics" people are just parroting the standard "DON'T LIKE IT DON'T LOOK AT IT/ ENTERTAINMENT HAS NO BEARING ON REAL LIFE" line. And one quotes Jhonen Vasquez to prove this point. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!

Well if CYD is Jay's 'competition' well,
IMHO, I think Fisk still has a use for that baseballbat.....

CYD is a bunch of *censored* that put down things that they can't understand.

Jay don't let those ID10Ts that call themseves CYD get you down.



Yes, Jay, fight! Fight for great justice!

Also, Jay himself replies on that board:



Wellllllll,

That's a very old post. I read it a long time ago.

He had to lie about what's in the comic in order to disparage it the way he did, so I feel pretty good about it. I just wish he'd posted a link to the comic. Then people could visit it and see what it was really about. Maybe that's why he didn't.

Jay Naylor


Ha ha! I'd just like to say that I did not tell a single lie about the contents of the comic in that article. Not a single word. Oh, sure, I expressed some pretty crazy opinions about what Naylor's motivations were and how his comics might be interpretted. But that's not lying.

DON'T BELIEVE THE NAYLOR HATE MACHINE!!!!11111!!!!!!!








I still hold fast to my conviction that Naylor fucks his sister, though, even if he doesn't have one.

Also, now I see where Webkilla comes from.
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Computolio
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Posted: 10/5/2004 3:48:31 AM     Post subject:  

the sheer crappiness of the edited dialog baloons is the best part
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Shmeckopolis
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Posted: 10/5/2004 4:02:46 AM     Post subject:  

Jay, you're making Anne Coulter look like Al Franken. Ease up.



Mistah Schmeck, you use your tongue prettier than a two dollar whore..

What do you think of my MSPAINT DELICACY? I call it "Kit and Kay: Showing us the way". All of the same rampant sex, with only a slightly different political angle!



Shit, I'll have to test market this thing!


Wow......the art in Kit and Kay Boodle is shitty.....
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 10/5/2004 4:03:24 AM     Post subject:  

(Im not totally sure who "Lucy" is... is thats Fisk's sister in the comic? and its someone else's character?)

Lucy was created by Mat Sherer. In both Badly Drawn Kitties and Better Days Fisk and Lucy are twins.

Correct my timeline if I am wrong here:

Hirtes' ham thread got Sherer's attention and he flames CYD on his group. Someone on the BDK group finally snaps bitches him out. Everyone on the group assumed it was people from here infiltrating the group - that was when CYD managed to invade a group somehow with no one doing anything. And then within a few weeks or whatever Sherer gets sick of all Naylor's bullshit and bitches him out.

I don't know about that part. Sherer doesn't like CYD, that's a matter of record. As for Sherer and Naylor falling out, it started when Sherer posted a comment on his site where he spoke out in favour of gay marriage. Naylor is against that - but the thing with Naylor is, not only is he right wing, he is certain that his political convictions are a result of him knowing The Facts, and anyone having other opinions is someone who doesn't know The Facts - someone who is, quite simply, ignorant and/or stupid (I'm not making this up, Naylor has written it pretty much in those words). So, when Sherer turned out be a liberal, Naylor let it be publicly known that Sherer was a stupid git. Their relationship disintegrated fast from there.

I never will understand why people will seek out things that will intentionally peeve them off. I mean, why would you, if you don't like the guy, bother reading his LJ anyway?

For the record, I don't seek out livejournal writings I know in advance I won't like. It's like this: I read Better Days and found that it contained a lot of right wing diatribes. I wanted to find out to what extent those were Naylor's own ideas. Theoretically, he could be a flaming commie writing a nasty satire on right wing thinking. I know that's not the case, as I've read the other threads on Naylor in this forum, but I wanted to know exactly how much of the diatribes were his own rather than something written to fit his characters. So, off to his livejournal to check. And the thing is, not only are the opinions expressed by Fisk and other characters (like Fisk's dad's chess-playing army buddy) exactly compatible with Naylor's own, they are written exactly alike. Naylor doesn't write for his characters, they have the same "tone of voice" that he does. In conclusion, the claim made by The New Meat and yours truly that Fisk = Naylor stands. After that, I really have no desire to read Naylor's livejournal anymore. Not because it pissed me off, it really didn't - at most, it made me go: :roll:


I don't think it had anything to do with gay marriage more than Matt sad something that wasn't exactly pro American courts (him being Canadian and all). More a matter of patriotism than political point of view.

As far as seeking out the thoughts of the witer of some comic, I guess that's where I differ then. I could care less about what the writer thought on his none comic work. But then I guess that's why I'm not much of a 'fan' of anyting be it writers, actors, atheletes, ect. With me, it's just entertain me and keep you opinions to yourself. If it isn't entertaining to my taste, then I just don't support it. But then, my need to KNOW isn't that great either. No wonder there's so many tabloid like shows on tv. There's obviously a market for those who want to know.
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 10/5/2004 4:16:50 AM     Post subject: Re: oh yeah?  

And just HOW much did Jay pay you to say that?


That seems to be a favorite non answer response.

Not the most open minded thoughout reply, but well written.


Left wing nuts are no better than right wing nuts. A nuts a nut regardless of which sack it's in.
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 10/5/2004 4:22:19 AM     Post subject:  

If Paul would mind reading what Jay has writen in his own forum then he would know that Jay doesn't exactly limit those of judaic belief to mice, he just showed ONE family of mice that happened to be so...

I think you have The New Meat and me mixed up. Find out if you want to criticise him or me and get back to us, OK?

What Jay pictures in Better Days... is nothing out of the ordinary

Fucking your 14 year old sister is nothing out of the ordinary? I doubt we live on the same planet.


I agree with that, thought the "Nothing out of the ordinary" part was a bit over the top. Frankly any sex between kids is creepy to me, but then I was raised old fashioned too.


Let's just say Jay, like many other people, does not fit neatly in to a square peg of his political beliefs, but then what person but a Yes Man does follow through with everything the political party the identify with?

I'm Demo, believe that the government s hold help out people for a limited time when they are need, but ultimately believe people should get off their lazy butts and get a job (Men in particular, so I guess I'm a bit sexist too. Nothing worst than a man without a job who isn't trying to find one in my opinion).
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 10/5/2004 4:28:39 AM     Post subject:  

What Jay pictures in Better Days... is nothing out of the ordinary - things like that happen, he just posts it. I dont konw what Paul's problem is, but he should really consider trying some triple-X-lax to get all that BS out of his system...

A loyal Jay-walker


I think Naylor's comic blows, and furthermore he should shut the fuck up with all the political garbage and incest and just get back to drawing decent furry pin ups. Thats seems to be his strong point.

Cuz when he has to do "plot" .. it just doesnt work out.


You're probably right, but again, I can't help but to point out that, if you're not the audience he's aiming for with the comic, then no matter how long you sit and wait, it's not going to change and shift to something more in your favor. So, you know, don't read it and find another comic strip to read. There's tons of them out there.

Personally, I recommend http://www.vgcats.com/ or Black Tapestry (though I haven't read that one in awhile).
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Shmeckopolis
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Posted: 10/5/2004 4:31:54 AM     Post subject: Re: oh yeah?  

Left wing nuts are no better than right wing nuts. A nuts a nut regardless of which sack it's in.


Amen
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 10/5/2004 4:35:49 AM     Post subject:  

Well, the "Talk about Comics" people are just parroting the standard "DON'T LIKE IT DON'T LOOK AT IT/ ENTERTAINMENT HAS NO BEARING ON REAL LIFE" line. And one quotes Jhonen Vasquez to prove this point. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!

Well if CYD is Jay's 'competition' well,
IMHO, I think Fisk still has a use for that baseballbat.....

CYD is a bunch of *censored* that put down things that they can't understand.

Jay don't let those ID10Ts that call themseves CYD get you down.



Yes, Jay, fight! Fight for great justice!

Also, Jay himself replies on that board:



Wellllllll,

That's a very old post. I read it a long time ago.

He had to lie about what's in the comic in order to disparage it the way he did, so I feel pretty good about it. I just wish he'd posted a link to the comic. Then people could visit it and see what it was really about. Maybe that's why he didn't.

Jay Naylor


Ha ha! I'd just like to say that I did not tell a single lie about the contents of the comic in that article. Not a single word. Oh, sure, I expressed some pretty crazy opinions about what Naylor's motivations were and how his comics might be interpretted. But that's not lying.

DON'T BELIEVE THE NAYLOR HATE MACHINE!!!!11111!!!!!!!








I still hold fast to my conviction that Naylor fucks his sister, though, even if he doesn't have one.

Also, now I see where Webkilla comes from.


No, not a lie, but not necessarily the truth either. I have no love lost with Jay, we've had our issues, but I am one for fair play regardless of which way you go. But least indirectly his point of view has been expressed so, play on.
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Rankin
Needs to get out more
Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 891

Posted: 10/5/2004 4:36:10 AM     Post subject:  

the sheer crappiness of the edited dialog baloons is the best part


I WORKED HARD ON THIS!
TRUE ART IS NEVER APPRECIATEEDDDDD!1!!! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

Ok, fine. I did my best to do a 10 year old's take on attempting to make a point, failing that showing what joys you might have by repealing your sinful nature: I mean, fuck, you can get laid. You can't get this now. (Ok, so I just randomly typed stupid shit after drawing a box. Happy?

...do not berate the powers of MSPain...paint... paint.
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The Outsider
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Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 100

Posted: 10/5/2004 4:49:09 AM     Post subject:  



You are the lowest form of life on Earth. You are not even human fucking beings! You are nothing but unorganized grabasstic pieces of amphibian shit! Because I am hard, you will not like me. But the more you hate me, the more you will learn. I am hard, but I am fair! There is no sexual bigotry here! I do not look down on lesbians, gays, Bi's or transexuals. Here you are all equally worthless! And my orders are to weed out all non-hackers who do not pack the gear to serve in my beloved internet! Do you maggots understand that?


SIR, YES SIR!!!


The Outsider (sounding off like I got a pair)
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Rankin
Needs to get out more
Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 891

Posted: 10/5/2004 4:53:35 AM     Post subject:  

SIR, YES SIR!!!


Do you suck dicks, private Outsider? Well... DO YA!?
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The New Meat
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Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Posts: 466

Posted: 10/5/2004 5:53:46 AM     Post subject:  

No, not a lie, but not necessarily the truth either.


WAR IS PEACE!

I have no love lost with Jay, we've had our issues, but I am one for fair play regardless of which way you go. But least indirectly his point of view has been expressed so, play on.


Howard, this is a hate site, you know. It's okay to say mean things here.
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The Outsider
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Posts: 100

Posted: 10/5/2004 7:49:53 AM     Post subject:  

Do you suck dicks, private Outsider? Well... DO YA!?


:roll: Another idjit to deal with.

Nar, but I can appreciate someone who's an expert in that unappreciated field of endeavor, so you carry on.


The Outsider
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MagKnightX
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Joined: 04 Dec 2003
Posts: 286

Posted: 10/5/2004 9:45:50 AM     Post subject:  

Hey ebonyleopard?

STOP FUCKING QUINTUPLE POSTING!!!
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Ebonyleopard
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Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 126

Posted: 10/5/2004 11:35:58 AM     Post subject:  

Hey ebonyleopard?

STOP FUCKING QUINTUPLE POSTING!!!


How am I quintuple posting? What, you can't reply to posts here or something? Isn't that the point of a message board? :?:
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SLaitila
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Posts: 197

Posted: 10/5/2004 2:40:47 PM     Post subject:  

Here is an example

NO

Rick: Good morning
James: Morning!
James: how are you doing?
James: It's a sunny day here
James: I say

YES

Rick: Good morning
James: Morning! How are you doing? It's a sunny day here, I say.
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Paul
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Posted: 10/5/2004 4:05:53 PM     Post subject:  

I don't know about that part. Sherer doesn't like CYD, that's a matter of record. As for Sherer and Naylor falling out, it started when Sherer posted a comment on his site where he spoke out in favour of gay marriage. Naylor is against that - but the thing with Naylor is, not only is he right wing, he is certain that his political convictions are a result of him knowing The Facts, and anyone having other opinions is someone who doesn't know The Facts - someone who is, quite simply, ignorant and/or stupid (I'm not making this up, Naylor has written it pretty much in those words). So, when Sherer turned out be a liberal, Naylor let it be publicly known that Sherer was a stupid git. Their relationship disintegrated fast from there.

I don't think it had anything to do with gay marriage more than Matt sad something that wasn't exactly pro American courts (him being Canadian and all). More a matter of patriotism than political point of view.

It's true that Sherer made some less than kind comments on the American politicians opposed to gay marriage, Naylor took offense and bingo. But AFAIK it wasn't so much a matter of patriotism, it was more like "I can't be friends with someone who disagrees with me" on Naylor's part. Sherer commented on the BDK forum:

Jay's thinking is that he is always right. I've had many a discussion with him, and have determined two things. One, he believes that he cannot be wrong about anything. Anyone who doesn't share his opinions only does so because they aren't as educated as he is. If they would take the time to study and research the issues as carefully as he has (via conservative-leaning news outlets, of course), they would come to realize that he is absolutely right. The second thing I determined is that he has no sense of tact, or regard for anyone else's feelings. He doesn't care if he's insulting you to your face, as long as he's making you realize that he's right. So his problem isn't that I'm more open-minded, it's that I have continually proven myself incapable of intelligent thought by refusing to bow to his opinions, and he's become tired of trying to educate the unwilling to learn.

As far as seeking out the thoughts of the witer of some comic, I guess that's where I differ then. I could care less about what the writer thought on his none comic work. But then I guess that's why I'm not much of a 'fan' of anyting be it writers, actors, atheletes, ect. With me, it's just entertain me and keep you opinions to yourself. If it isn't entertaining to my taste, then I just don't support it. But then, my need to KNOW isn't that great either. No wonder there's so many tabloid like shows on tv. There's obviously a market for those who want to know.

Well, I'm inflicted with curiosity. That's why I'm here - I want to find out what makes furries tick. Normally I wouldn't care what a comics author thinks about society in general, but when Naylor makes his characters hold speeches, I thought I'd find out if they were Naylor's own. S'all.
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Shmorky
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Posted: 10/5/2004 4:46:24 PM     Post subject:  

He says you're lying about what's in the comic? Why would someone need to? Just post a typical uncropped, unedited comic from his archives and let people see for themselves what the thing is like.

here's some music to listen to as you read his comics:
http://www.shmorky.com/shmorky-nipntuck.swf
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SLaitila
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Posted: 10/5/2004 4:55:38 PM     Post subject:  


here's some music to listen to as you read his comics:
http://www.shmorky.com/shmorky-nipntuck.swf


That's about the funniest piece of audio i've heard in a long time.
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Donotsue
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Posted: 10/5/2004 5:11:35 PM     Post subject:  

Sounds from GroatCon? =)
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Shmorky
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Posted: 10/5/2004 5:41:17 PM     Post subject:  

I made it myself.
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ZenZhu
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Posted: 10/5/2004 7:11:03 PM     Post subject:  

Having looked through the run of the comic, all I can really say is that it's rather unimpressive. Sure, there are areas where it looks to be a soapbox for Naylor preaching his political views. But, those views are presented so superficially that I really can't see any conviction behind them. That's not to suggest his diatribes in the comic aren't things he feels strongly about, but his characters' dialogue is relatively flat and unable to convey any real passion. Naylor doesn't break his speeches up. You can see when he's going on a tear because it will be the one or two balloons that take up an entire panel. The dialogue in those balloons is so strung together and flat that, even if it's something he feels passionate about, I just can't get any sense of conviction there. His ability to convey emotions in his characters is, like his dialogue, only superficial as well. Roll these two together, and it's rather like watching one of those Disney World animatronic "actors" delivering a monotone speech about the Declaration of Independence or something.

As such, I really can't find myself caring about Naylor's views enough to even be offended by them. In addition to the flat delivery, Naylor can't seem to decide what side of the fence he's sitting on. Of course, one of the great things about thinking for yourself is you don't have to tow any one party's line completely. You can be in favor of welfare cuts and increased military spending while also supporting abortion and gay rights. Still, the views expressed in Better Days come off more as a mishmash of ideas. I think it goes back to the flat delivery and relatively emotionless faces in the comic... you just don't get a real sense of what Naylor's trying to say and, in the end, really don't care.

Likewise, I really can't find myself offended by the whole kids-having-sex Fisk-bones-his-sister thing. As far as the Shinikwa episode, there's no set up or anything. An 11-year old girl whipping her shirt off and suggesting a tumble in the treehouse without any set up, provocation, or otherwise is so out of the blue that the ham-fisted attempt at introducing the concept of child sexuality obscures any shock value or attempt at meaning it may have otherwise had.

Kids have sex, yes. Kids are having sex at younger ages, yes. But, a kid doesn't just strip down and propose they practice their mattress mambo. There is no set-up to the scene or indication of why this stereotypically-named hyena decides to play Rambone with a kid she's really just met. We learn later she's a product of a sexually abusive household, yet, when she is with Fisk in the treehouse, there are no behaviors displayed to foreshadow that her being sexually forward is actually a learned, aggressive behavior. Even if she was simply a total slut, there is nothing in the story up to then to suggest this. As it stands, we just see a very bland character deliver a love note, later grab Fisk and haul him off, climb up a tree, and shed her clothes.

Later, with Fisk's sister, the whole scene is really kind of glossed over. Presumably, Lucy, suffering from a blow to her womanly ego, just needs to be near someone, anyone. So, she crawls into Fisks bed, and all we really see is a flashback to imply something happened. Now, I'm personally glad we don't see all of the sordid details, but, the attempt at storytelling still suffers for it. Naylor takes all of the thoughs and feelings that would obviously been involved in such an encounter... all of the "is this wrong".. the nervousness... the yielding to the act out of simple loneliness.... there's nothing. Naylor has successfully reduced what, presumably, was supposed to be a dramatic and even tragic event to a mere physical act. Little more seems to have occurred between Fisk and Lucy than if they were strangers textfucking in a chat room. Only in the vauge attempt at meaningful dialogue later do we get the hint that their psyches were affected somehow, but, the bland treatment it receives from Naylor makes it seem like whatever effect it has was minimal.

The comic also waffles in what it tries to be. At times, it's a simple mouthpiece for Naylor's rather unimpassioned diatribes. At other times, it tries to be something like Real Life Comics or the VGCats EbonyLeopard mentioned. These are your standard online comics pairing one or more straight men with one zany dufus who is usually seen in the very last panel doing something amazingly stupid, about to do something amazingly stupid, or suffering the aftermath of his zany hijinks. At times, Fisk is portrayed as almost Homer Simpsonesque... when he's not being a cross between Mr. Spock and Don Rickles. Other times, the comic tries to be dramatic, like NYPD Blue. And, even others, it attempts to be a slice-of-life drama/comedy, like The Wonder Years or Northern Exposure. There's even a hint of X-Filesesque behind-the-scenes shenanigans, when Fisk's mother's CIA friend arranges for the principal to suffer "complications." There's even a Ferris Buelleresque breaking of the fourth wall once or twice.. but this quickly disappears, since the comic seems to take whatever turn strikes Naylor's fancy that day. It's rather like Stimpy's "Explodey the Cat."

In the end, though, it just wanders aimlessly between genres. The drama is never quite dramatic enough... largely due to Naylor's apparent inability to really flesh a story out and give it any real depth. The zany hijinks are never zany enough, barely inspiring so much as a cockeyed grin. The diatribes are unconvincing in their passion and, while Naylor probably does feel strongly about the views he presents in the comic.. cannot express himself on paper well enough to really make you care one way or another.. failing to inspire either support or outrage for his views.

In the end, Better Days doesn't really succeed in being anything other than ink on paper and a website. Its superficial, seemingly unplanned delivery make the entirety of the storylines fall flat. It seems more like Naylor just works the story out page-by-page, rather than doing anything resembling the writing/storytelling process. The comic is inhabited by bland, almost expressionless characters that are really just cookie-cutter stereotypes. The whole thing is so shallow and undeveloped that one simply can't be inspired to feel anything about it other than overwhelming apathy.

On a final note, the in-jokey reference to Happy Tree Friends further brings the comic down by violating the time period in which it took place. Sure, Happy Tree Friends may have been the flavor of the month at the time the comic was drawn, but it's creators probably weren't even a twinkle in the eyes of their parents at the time the comic takes place. It makes about as much sense as the evening's entertainment at the 4077th M*A*S*H compound being The Empire Strikes Back.

I can't really give the comic a thumbs up or thumbs down. I find myself caring so little for it and its characters that I can't even muster the desire to raise my arm, let alone extend my thumb one way or the other.

(BTW, Shawnte.. the multi-post gripe is about your numerous posts, one after the other, responding to multiple people. Netiquitte on most forums suggests that you quote and respond to each post you want to address in one big post, rather than three or four individual posts. The way you respond seperately to several different posts now is often viewed as a kind of spamming.)
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Shmeckopolis
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Posted: 10/5/2004 8:42:33 PM     Post subject:  


Little more seems to have occurred between Fisk and Lucy than if they were strangers textfucking in a chat room.


This could be due to the fact that Naylor may only know textfucking, and seems to show an ignorance to most human emotions, or at least an inability to properly display them.
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ZenZhu
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Posted: 10/5/2004 9:46:03 PM     Post subject:  

It might be a 50-50 split between his drawing ability and his style. Overall, the range of expressions on his characters doesn't vary a whole lot. The tilt of the ears, narrowing of the eyes, and the corners of the mouth give some clues as to what emotion is being conveyed, but it doesn't show as anything more than a kind of mask. Looking through his VCL archive, there's so many pinups of characters looking either sultry and aloof, or sporting that deer-in-the-headlights "I'm tied up and afraid of what'll come next" that it seems his faces have kind of stuck that way. (Remember what your momma told you?) His faces show some emotion, but, they're really not fully conveyed... dare I say, the emotions not fully realized... beyond anything resembling slight alterations on pin-up faces.

The other thing that may be bringing his capacity for facial expressions and character designs down is just that his overall style is a kind of cutsey combination of WB Tiny Toons, Sonic the Hedgehog, Eric Schwartz, and a few touches of anime. It's actually a rather limiting style. If you get too cute, it can inhibit your ability to produce a range of character types across a range of ages. A good example of this is some of the anime/manga artists' styles, like that of Johji Manabe. Their styles make for great villains, wizened old wise guys, youthful heroes, and young babes.... but, the cutsey factor rules out being able to produce anyone that may be fairly average in their mid-30's. While it's kind of wonky, the style Detective Conan (AKA "Case Closed") provides a deceptive range of character styles and ages.

With Naylor's style, there is no room for anything other than doe-eyed cutesy characters. There are no plain characters. No heavy-set characters. Even the child raping terrorist hyena father looks like a plush toy. On one hand, it's kind of interesting that, with the range of species available to portray different character types and body types, Naylor keeps his species limited to such a narrow range. There are no okapi, elephants, pangolins, anteaters, aardvarks, babirusas, spectacled bears, red pandas, moles, or bantengs in Naylor's little world. If he wanted to use certain species for certain races while providing some of the diversity that anthro art offers, he could have reflected races by using animals indigenous to those continents from which the races originated. African animals for blacks, European animals for whites (or, loosen it up to use North American animals as well, so they're not solely reserved for Native Americans), and such.

Of course, all of this would assume that Naylor even could draw an anthroporphic elephant, or any other animal not bearing at least a vague resemblance to a feline or canine. Even his hyenas don't look like anything more than cats with hyena markings. Even if he drew them as a vague dog shape, hyenas just have a distinctive appearance that separates them from canines. So, while it's interesting that Naylor's world is populated with a very limited number of species, it's also unsurprising. His characters are just not very diverse because his artistic skill does not appear diverse enough to allow him to produce such characters - and a collection of characters that look vaguely feline, regardless of species, shooting vapid, big-eyed, occasionally sultry glances at each other just doesn't really let one emote on the page.

Another thing that just dawned on me, looking at his page layouts, is that the world of Better Days is very...... claustrophobic. While in most panels we see some indication of what room the characters are in, there really aren't enough establishing shots to give you a sense of the breadth of the world Fisk inhabits. Thinking back on the pages, I don't believe there are any panels that show what the house he lives in looks like... or what his treehouse looked like. We know what one little corner of his treehouse looks like, but not the whole thing. We don't get a sense of spacial relation as to where it is in his back yard. There is really nothing to give you a sense of scope and location in space in the world the comic takes place in. In the most recent strip, we see Fisk skipping stones across a stream. Well, where is this stream in relation to everything? The reader doesn't need the place mapped out in some Tolkeinesque attempt at defining every last detail of the world.. but it would help to identify with the scene if the reader knew vaguely where it was and how the characters got there. So, there's another thing that brings the comic down in what it attempts to do.

For a comic that tries to present itself as a slice-of-life comic, it doesn't show enough ties to that life to really give the reader a sense of what slice we are seeing. Of course, you don't need to consider things like locale and setting when all you're really wanting to do is give your talking heads an opportunity to pontificate. This comic bears the mark of so many other furry comics of someone who is stuck in the rut of doing one-page comic shots and pinups that when they try to create a story of any real scale, it is too loosely structured to be of any value.
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m_estrugo
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Posted: 10/5/2004 10:29:06 PM     Post subject:  

Very interesing review, ZenZhu. Mind you if I ask you to do a similar review on a comic by me? I'm really interested to know what do you think of my stuff. :)
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Anonymous
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Posted: 10/5/2004 10:31:57 PM     Post subject:  

Another thing that just dawned on me, looking at his page layouts, is that the world of Better Days is very...... claustrophobic. While in most panels we see some indication of what room the characters are in, there really aren't enough establishing shots to give you a sense of the breadth of the world Fisk inhabits. Thinking back on the pages, I don't believe there are any panels that show what the house he lives in looks like... or what his treehouse looked like. We know what one little corner of his treehouse looks like, but not the whole thing. We don't get a sense of spacial relation as to where it is in his back yard. There is really nothing to give you a sense of scope and location in space in the world the comic takes place in. In the most recent strip, we see Fisk skipping stones across a stream. Well, where is this stream in relation to everything? The reader doesn't need the place mapped out in some Tolkeinesque attempt at defining every last detail of the world.. but it would help to identify with the scene if the reader knew vaguely where it was and how the characters got there. So, there's another thing that brings the comic down in what it attempts to do.

Or furries can't draw backrounds. :P
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 10/5/2004 11:17:11 PM     Post subject:  

I don't know about that part. Sherer doesn't like CYD, that's a matter of record. As for Sherer and Naylor falling out, it started when Sherer posted a comment on his site where he spoke out in favour of gay marriage. Naylor is against that - but the thing with Naylor is, not only is he right wing, he is certain that his political convictions are a result of him knowing The Facts, and anyone having other opinions is someone who doesn't know The Facts - someone who is, quite simply, ignorant and/or stupid (I'm not making this up, Naylor has written it pretty much in those words). So, when Sherer turned out be a liberal, Naylor let it be publicly known that Sherer was a stupid git. Their relationship disintegrated fast from there.

I don't think it had anything to do with gay marriage more than Matt sad something that wasn't exactly pro American courts (him being Canadian and all). More a matter of patriotism than political point of view.

It's true that Sherer made some less than kind comments on the American politicians opposed to gay marriage, Naylor took offense and bingo. But AFAIK it wasn't so much a matter of patriotism, it was more like "I can't be friends with someone who disagrees with me" on Naylor's part. Sherer commented on the BDK forum:

Jay's thinking is that he is always right. I've had many a discussion with him, and have determined two things. One, he believes that he cannot be wrong about anything. Anyone who doesn't share his opinions only does so because they aren't as educated as he is. If they would take the time to study and research the issues as carefully as he has (via conservative-leaning news outlets, of course), they would come to realize that he is absolutely right. The second thing I determined is that he has no sense of tact, or regard for anyone else's feelings. He doesn't care if he's insulting you to your face, as long as he's making you realize that he's right. So his problem isn't that I'm more open-minded, it's that I have continually proven myself incapable of intelligent thought by refusing to bow to his opinions, and he's become tired of trying to educate the unwilling to learn.

As far as seeking out the thoughts of the witer of some comic, I guess that's where I differ then. I could care less about what the writer thought on his none comic work. But then I guess that's why I'm not much of a 'fan' of anyting be it writers, actors, atheletes, ect. With me, it's just entertain me and keep you opinions to yourself. If it isn't entertaining to my taste, then I just don't support it. But then, my need to KNOW isn't that great either. No wonder there's so many tabloid like shows on tv. There's obviously a market for those who want to know.

Well, I'm inflicted with curiosity. That's why I'm here - I want to find out what makes furries tick. Normally I wouldn't care what a comics author thinks about society in general, but when Naylor makes his characters hold speeches, I thought I'd find out if they were Naylor's own. S'all.


That's fair.
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 10/5/2004 11:28:43 PM     Post subject:  

(BTW, Shawnte.. the multi-post gripe is about your numerous posts, one after the other, responding to multiple people. Netiquitte on most forums suggests that you quote and respond to each post you want to address in one big post, rather than three or four individual posts. The way you respond seperately to several different posts now is often viewed as a kind of spamming.)

I did not know that. I've seen people reply multiple times during a thread and didn't think anyting about it, since I only read the forum once a day,and thus only make replies during that time.

But see, I'll avoid that in the future. Things get done a lot better when people take the time to exactually explain things instead of giving inflammatory reaction responses.

BTW, since that's the case. How so you get the html to work write with the quotes so that what you're quoting is in the white box and your reply is under it?
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Rankin
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Posted: 10/6/2004 12:04:31 AM     Post subject:  

BTW, since that's the case. How so you get the html to work write with the quotes so that what you're quoting is in the white box and your reply is under it?


Editing... manual cuttenpaste, and creating the proper tags, as such:

e="Ebonyleopard">BTW, since that's the case. How so you get the html to work write with the quotes so that what you're quoting is in the white box and your reply is under it?ote>

Blah... Response here.

e="Hirtes">Flim flam flame...te>....

Witty retort here...

Only, I did some evilness here to make it not show the quoet boxes. Thisis how you cut, paste, and type...

Just make sure your quote starts with e>, ends with e>, and has the goop between it, with your text afterwards. Of course, we've seen what happens when you nest them deeply.
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Anonymous
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Posted: 10/6/2004 1:39:20 AM     Post subject:  

They only meant your posts following eachother, responding multiple times in a thread isn't the problem. If you respond then edit that current post to add more if somebody else hasn't responded before you, it's only an issue of clutter.
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Shmeckopolis
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Posted: 10/6/2004 2:54:02 AM     Post subject:  

Y'know, ZenZhu, you really oughta consider doing regular comic reviews. Where, I don't know, but my point still stands.
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 10/6/2004 3:32:25 AM     Post subject:  

They only meant your posts following eachother, responding multiple times in a thread isn't the problem. If you respond then edit that current post to add more if somebody else hasn't responded before you, it's only an issue of clutter.


Ooh, okay. well, thankyou for taking the time to spell that out.
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thegunman
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Posted: 10/6/2004 7:51:50 AM     Post subject:  

fuck all this right wing bashing and all this talk of this naylor dumbass representing us. this guys about as right wing as john kerry.

i know i'm going to get hellish replies for this but here it is, from what i've seen he's just some nerd with a retared comic and a perverted mind who wants to be like me and all the other level headed, gun owning, freedom loving, moral independent conservitive but can't cause he fucked in the head. so what if he throws in a couple of right wing lines, that dosen't mean shit. his preverted drawing and retarded stance on life issues in his work speak louder than what he claims to be.

it's ethier that or he's a Democrat trying to slander the conservitives in the furry realm.

or maybe he's just a moron.
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SLaitila
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Posted: 10/6/2004 8:16:49 AM     Post subject:  

i know i'm going to get hellish replies for this but here it is, from what i've seen he's just some nerd with a retared comic and a perverted mind who wants to be like me and all the other level headed, gun owning, freedom loving, moral independent conservitive but can't cause he fucked in the head. so what if he throws in a couple of right wing lines, that dosen't mean shit. his preverted drawing and retarded stance on life issues in his work speak louder than what he claims to be.


He is expressing right wing opinions in a rather mindless rambling style.

He could be expressing any opinion, but the way he is expressing it is, well, quite not cool.

And, also, who cares.
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Anonymous
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Posted: 10/6/2004 8:34:22 AM     Post subject:  

i know i'm going to get hellish replies for this but here it is, from what i've seen he's just some nerd with a retared comic and a perverted mind who wants to be like me and all the other level headed, gun owning, freedom loving, moral independent conservitive but can't cause he fucked in the head. so what if he throws in a couple of right wing lines, that dosen't mean shit. his preverted drawing and retarded stance on life issues in his work speak louder than what he claims to be.


He is expressing right wing opinions in a rather mindless rambling style.

He could be expressing any opinion, but the way he is expressing it is, well, quite not cool.

And, also, who cares.

Who cares? People who find his idiocy entertaining.

He IS rightwing whether you like him or not, remember the days where the perverts were still furry whether you liked it or not? Now adays 'normal' people are furries whether the perverts like it or not, ironic.
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SLaitila
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Posted: 10/6/2004 8:47:41 AM     Post subject:  

Who cares? People who find his idiocy entertaining.


I forgot add something.

Anyway I was pointing out that arguing about US politics is useless, especially in CYD (and the rest of the internet.)
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Anonymous
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Posted: 10/6/2004 9:10:22 AM     Post subject:  

Because as we all know, politics should not be argued in any fashion. If we were meant to do that we would have free speech and an internet connection, whoops.
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SLaitila
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Posted: 10/6/2004 11:58:42 AM     Post subject:  

Because as we all know, politics should not be argued in any fashion. If we were meant to do that we would have free speech and an internet connection, whoops.


In my despotic dream world people would just shut up, let the politicians do the arguing and vote.
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Rankin
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Posted: 10/6/2004 3:07:22 PM     Post subject:  

Because as we all know, politics should not be argued in any fashion. If we were meant to do that we would have free speech and an internet connection, whoops.


In my despotic dream world people would just shut up, let the politicians do the arguing and vote.


Better still, ship all the politicians off to oh... FInland, or Greenland, and keep the rest of the world for ourselves. "Planet America" I call it. ;)
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SLaitila
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Posted: 10/6/2004 4:59:14 PM     Post subject:  

Better still, ship all the politicians off to oh... FInland, or Greenland, and keep the rest of the world for ourselves. "Planet America" I call it.


That sounds like the world today. Except for the politicians living in finland or greenland.
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Computolio
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Posted: 10/6/2004 5:05:37 PM     Post subject:  


or maybe he's just a moron.


I like this conclusion.
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Shmeckopolis
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Posted: 10/6/2004 9:09:25 PM     Post subject:  

Better still, ship all the politicians off to oh... FInland, or Greenland, and keep the rest of the world for ourselves. "Planet America" I call it. ;)


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Anonymous
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Posted: 10/6/2004 9:59:36 PM     Post subject:  

Better still, ship all the politicians off to oh... FInland, or Greenland, and keep the rest of the world for ourselves. "Planet America" I call it.


That sounds like the world today. Except for the politicians living in finland or greenland.

Yes, no other countries exist, America IS the world. We all have some underlying elitism in America, your country isn't as good as ours because it isn't America. :D
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The New Meat
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Posted: 10/7/2004 1:15:05 AM     Post subject:  

USA! USA!
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Rankin
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Posted: 10/7/2004 1:45:26 AM     Post subject: Delicious bic pens. I snap their back and suck the blood.  

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Anonymous
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Posted: 10/7/2004 2:14:56 AM     Post subject:  

WE WILL NEVAR FORGET, NEVAAAARRRR
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Wayd Wolf
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Posted: 10/7/2004 2:38:52 AM     Post subject:  

thegunman is right. Naylor's not a conservative, he's fucked up quite a bit.

I left the whole survivalist area when I noted a profusion of mind-fucked, paranoid, fearful people.

FYI, conservatives are NOT anti-semitic or racist by nature. That is a slam from liberals much like calling your enemy a child molestor. The accusation is so damning at first blush that no one listens to the defense. One of the most conservative anti-liberal women I've ever known was my ex, and she was black. One of the more tweaked conservative survivalists is Aaron Zelman of the Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership. We're hardly a bunch of rich white guys smoking cigars and harumphing.

Such anti-semitism and racial nonsense is more common among those mindfucked individuals who we conservatives try to distance ourselves from but they hang on like leeches. Like early furry freaks on the fandom before it degenerated altogether. I despise Neo Nazis and the like. Anyone claiming they have a place within conservatism is wrong. David Dukes was never an accepted member of American conservatisim but the media never bothered reporting the truth.

Naylor's brand of horseshit will of course be taken as other than it is. But the fact is, Naylor is merely another severely fucked up person.
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Rankin
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Posted: 10/7/2004 2:53:02 AM     Post subject:  

thegunman is right. Naylor's not a conservative, he's fucked up quite a bit.


That's it, Wayd. You've betrayed the fringe for the last time with this 'truth' of yours. You're out of the stonecutters! :twisted:
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Donotsue
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Posted: 10/7/2004 3:08:08 AM     Post subject:  

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21st Century Digital Boy
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Posted: 10/7/2004 3:09:05 AM     Post subject: Re: Delicious bic pens. I snap their back and suck the bloo  


Better:
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The New Meat
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Posted: 10/7/2004 4:02:38 AM     Post subject:  


David Dukes was never an accepted member of American conservatisim but the media never bothered reporting the truth.



The OMG liberal media?
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Rankin
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Posts: 891

Posted: 10/7/2004 4:17:00 AM     Post subject:  

The OMG liberal media?


Forbid I not assume that NPR isn't biased!?!?!!!!

THE HELL YOU SAY, SIR!
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Shmeckopolis
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Posted: 10/7/2004 4:35:39 AM     Post subject: Re: Delicious bic pens. I snap their back and suck the bloo  


Better:


Those pics make me want to forget, out of sheer spite...
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Anonymous
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Posted: 10/7/2004 4:48:05 AM     Post subject: Re: Delicious bic pens. I snap their back and suck the bloo  


Better:


Not just "t3h crap" artists won't forget, "t3h angst" artists too!
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Shmeckopolis
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Posted: 10/7/2004 4:52:33 AM     Post subject: Re: Delicious bic pens. I snap their back and suck the bloo  



Wouldn't "angst" pretty much hit the nail on the head?
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Anonymous
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Posted: 10/7/2004 5:16:47 AM     Post subject:  

Hence my using it.

NEVAAAAARRRRRR
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ZenZhu
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Posted: 10/7/2004 5:55:03 PM     Post subject: Re: Delicious bic pens. I snap their back and suck the bloo  


What good is wearing an armor vest if you're standing there in your underpants with a bed sheet tied around your neck?

"El Capitan! The underpants-clad avenging fox is descending upon the compound!"

"Get him! Shoot for the chest! Shoot for the chest!"

"It is no good, Generalissimo! He is wearing the armor plating on his chest! What do we do now!?!?!?"

"We pray, mi compadre... we pray."

This is, of course, assuming the enemy doesn't laugh themselves to death first when they see him coming.... big ol' boxer underpants and his skinny li'l chicken legs.
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Kadius
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Posted: 10/7/2004 10:08:04 PM     Post subject:  

It's my firm belief that:

FURRY RUINS EVERYTHING.
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Jerry Collins
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Posted: 10/9/2004 7:04:03 PM     Post subject: Naylor Jugen  

I said it once I'll say it again,Jay Naylor is an extearmist -right clone of Taral Wayne...get over it world!
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The New Meat
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Posted: 10/9/2004 8:20:13 PM     Post subject: Re: Naylor Jugen  

I said it once I'll say it again,Jay Naylor is an extearmist -right clone of Taral Wayne...get over it world!


Taral Wayne? How's he come into this?
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Rankin
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Posted: 10/9/2004 8:31:23 PM     Post subject: Re: Naylor Jugen  

Taral Wayne? How's he come into this?


BLAME CANADA! 8)
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ZenZhu
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Posted: 10/10/2004 7:01:13 AM     Post subject:  

I haven't read volumes on him, but my first impression of Naylor is he's basically a guy that wants to defend his priveledges of both brandishing guns and bared boobies. Too many guns to be left wing and too much porn to be right. He seems seems to be to "extremist" what corporate-outlined Mt. Dew commercials are to "eXtreme."
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Mitch
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Posted: 10/12/2004 4:32:52 PM     Post subject:  

What is this crap on the Furry Militia forum?
Crush Yiff Destroy was created in the Something Awful forums.

WELL THIS CERTAINLY COMES AS NEWS TO ME! WHY DIDN'T SOMEONE TELL ME!?

They're a second rate Something Awful

*expires from apoplexy*
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ZenZhu
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Posted: 10/12/2004 5:39:31 PM     Post subject:  

We're a kinder, gentler awful. We're an awful that knows what we're talking about, cuz we've been there.

SA bashing furries is kind of like an otaku who's never left Wisconsin talking about how great Japan is. CYD is a bit more like an army brat talking about how much he liked Japan when his family was stationed over there.
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Shmorky
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Posted: 10/12/2004 5:48:49 PM     Post subject:  

What is this crap on the Furry Militia forum?
Crush Yiff Destroy was created in the Something Awful forums.

WELL THIS CERTAINLY COMES AS NEWS TO ME! WHY DIDN'T SOMEONE TELL ME!?

They're a second rate Something Awful

*expires from apoplexy*


I don't know where they got the idea that this was created by Something Awful except for some SA posters posting here. And yeah, it's nowhere near as good as SA but CYD is another beast entirely.


(this image wont be up for long ha ha)
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Rankin
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Posted: 10/12/2004 6:34:04 PM     Post subject:  

...pic...


DAMN you for making me burst out laughing! I haven't smiled here since I got this shitty job!
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Mastertran
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Posted: 10/12/2004 6:54:55 PM     Post subject:  

Oh man I love the whole Tough Love arc. Even more when Mr. Naylor can;t just make the Hyena man a terrorist he also has to make him a rapist and child molester too. Just so you can tell he's evil. Also is the Hyena and Al Queda type terrorist or Black Panther terrorist?

Master Tran


:twisted:
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Mitch
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Posted: 10/12/2004 7:18:43 PM     Post subject:  

Oh man I love the whole Tough Love arc. Even more when Mr. Naylor can;t just make the Hyena man a terrorist he also has to make him a rapist and child molester too. Just so you can tell he's evil. Also is the Hyena and Al Queda type terrorist or Black Panther terrorist?

Master Tran


:twisted:

Ho ho, those dumb hyenas:
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mouse
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Posted: 10/12/2004 7:27:09 PM     Post subject: conjecture  

Jay Naylor doesn't like black people.
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Michael Hirtes
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Posted: 10/12/2004 8:31:52 PM     Post subject:  


(this image wont be up for long ha ha)


You know, this means that you've now blown any chance of Purple replacing any of the BDK side characters in Better Days, Schmorky. :lol:

As for Naylor not liking black people, Jay hates all sorts of people! Blacks, Jews, Muslims, anyone in the greater Los Angeles area (Orange County excluded, natch), etc.. Probably will start hating Mormons too as soon as he can figure out what sort of critter he can caricaturize them as.

Jay's an equal-opportunity hater.
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The New Meat
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Posted: 10/12/2004 8:32:27 PM     Post subject:  


I don't know where they got the idea that this was created by Something Awful except for some SA posters posting here. And yeah, it's nowhere near as good as SA but CYD is another beast entirely.


...but we try harder.
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ZenZhu
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Posted: 10/12/2004 8:33:01 PM     Post subject:  

Naylor has his hyenas dancin' softshoe, eatin' chitlins and watermelon, and yet we're the ones they compare to the KKK.

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Kadius
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Posted: 10/12/2004 9:43:23 PM     Post subject:  



LOLLERSKATING OVER TO THE ROFLEHOUSE.
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GoManVanGogh
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Posted: 10/12/2004 10:20:52 PM     Post subject:  

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ZenZhu
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Posted: 10/12/2004 10:36:39 PM     Post subject:  

Are you sure we're not related?

Why, do you want to fuck him? :D
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MagKnightX
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Posted: 10/12/2004 11:22:27 PM     Post subject:  

Donny, Zen, and Shmorky are why I absolutely love this forum.

Probably would love DA, too, if she'd stop being coy and would finally share some of her pics.
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 10/13/2004 2:13:54 AM     Post subject:  

What is this crap on the Furry Militia forum?
Crush Yiff Destroy was created in the Something Awful forums.

WELL THIS CERTAINLY COMES AS NEWS TO ME! WHY DIDN'T SOMEONE TELL ME!?

They're a second rate Something Awful

*expires from apoplexy*


I don't know where they got the idea that this was created by Something Awful except for some SA posters posting here. And yeah, it's nowhere near as good as SA but CYD is another beast entirely.


(this image wont be up for long ha ha)


Okay. I dion't usually approve of altering images or anything, but this, this, I gotta give you props on it, if for nothing else, the reaction you got from me.

Here I am reading the post and scrolling down and then I come to the top of the comic link. I'm thinking, okay, somebody linked to the latest comic (expecting to see the exact same comic). But what do I get to my surprise as I slowly scroll down on my Wacom tablet's mouse, but the final DIFFERENT panels which literally, made me JUMP, and give off a very girly AAH! sound from what can best be described at that time as suprise and slight fear. That totally creeped me out seeing the unexpected like that. For that emotional reaction, (one stronger than I got from the original) I give you props for editing work.

If you drew that last panel yourself, even more props, cause I almost thought he drew that himself.

I'm going to have nightmares tonight now from the image of Fisk's creepy psycho face from the last panel.
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Tailgunner
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Posted: 10/13/2004 3:12:14 AM     Post subject:  



(this image wont be up for long ha ha)


ROFLMAO!

OMG! Great minds think alike!
I just read (As in 30 seconds prior to this post) the latest comic and THIS was the exact same thing I that crossed my mind! This Naylor guy left himself wide open to something like this!

After reading that last comic, I was thinking to myself, "WTH? He fucked his sister and he thinks he doesn't need the therapist anymore?"

I was just about to post that last comic and say something afterwards, then I saw you beat me to it.
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hohum
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Posted: 10/13/2004 12:21:58 PM     Post subject:  

Reading Naylor's Yahoo group i saw something that really shows up the class of his fans, or should i say lack of class:

Someone says-
10/4/2004 - Before I take off on a serious note, just some light hearted banter: On the Belfry comic index, Better Days has been battling Ozy & Millie for the #6 most subscribed comic slot among registered users all weekend. The idea that I would even be close to such a regarded comic in popularity was something I hadn't thought possible a year ago. Much thanks to all the registered Belfry folks for showing your support.

Then one of the real diehards comes back with THIS-
Choose Better Days. It's not drawn by a closet Pedophile.

-Todd
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Anonymous
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Posted: 10/13/2004 3:29:40 PM     Post subject:  

Todd said it? It MUST be true!!1!(one)!
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Mitch
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Posted: 10/13/2004 4:44:45 PM     Post subject:  

Reading Naylor's Yahoo group i saw something that really shows up the class of his fans, or should i say lack of class:

Someone says-
10/4/2004 - Before I take off on a serious note, just some light hearted banter: On the Belfry comic index, Better Days has been battling Ozy & Millie for the #6 most subscribed comic slot among registered users all weekend. The idea that I would even be close to such a regarded comic in popularity was something I hadn't thought possible a year ago. Much thanks to all the registered Belfry folks for showing your support.

Then one of the real diehards comes back with THIS-
Choose Better Days. It's not drawn by a closet Pedophile.

-Todd

Now that really does get me seething. O&M's only real faults are a tendency to be a little preachy and samey. It's a strip that is head and shoulders above most of the furry dreck, and a lot of syndicated strips as well. God alone knows what poor old Dave Simpson did to incur the spite of this dittomonkey, probably refused to draw some O&M pr0n for him.
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Donotsue
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Posted: 10/13/2004 4:58:17 PM     Post subject:  

Seems the altered comic has made everyone laugh out loud... =) Xcept the humorless fans who's souls've
been raped!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For the love of darkness - Choose Tank Vixens It's drawn by a convicted pedophile.

Okay, so that wasn't nice of me....
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ZenZhu
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Posted: 10/13/2004 6:14:05 PM     Post subject:  

Well, see the fans realize that we just don't get Better Days. See, it's all deep and damatic and stuff, but when it's funny, hilarity ensues. We're just closed-minded mental midgets that can't understand how this is a finely-crafted coming-of-age story delivered with incisive wit and razor-like insight.

Either that or they just don't get that it masquerades as one.

Y'know, I once visited a cave once where it had a pool of water below a cathedral-like ceiling. As my group approached the pool, a gasp of awe washed over all of us. Not only was the ceiling of the cave impressively high, but this pool was amazingly deep. Surely, it was a marvel that had lured many a cave-diver in there to face whatever perils lurked at its voluminous depths. What was really so amazing was that the pristine water had apparently collected in such a short time span that the stalagmites had been untouched by the ravages of any running water.

As we crossed the bridge over the pool, our amazement turned to a mix of disappointment and self-effacing laughter at our folly. As it turned out, the crystal clear depths of the pool were nothing more than a reflection of the ceiling. The pool itself was no more than two inches deep, which gave it the mirror-effect and created the illusion of depth.

In many ways, Better Days, and also Jack - while I'm at it - are like that pool. At a distance and and first glance, it seems like you're looking at something deep. But, as you step a little closer to it and learn more about it, you can clearly see it's no deeper than what your false perceptions made it out to be.

(Of course, someone will probably use that to pull a "it's a mirror on society" crap.)

Incidentally, I was thinking the other night about the strip cited with the whole "How do you spell 'black'" exchange. While the concensus is it's Naylor's way of saying "Stupid hyena can't spell her own race.", it also shows Naylor's pretty quick to use a situation that makes sense to turn it into something nonsensical.

Think about it. With malpractice charges flying left and right from money-hungry people seeing their chance to snag a few bucks because of even so much as a typographical error, it would make sense that a hospital would have a policy where the attendant taking a name would require it to be spelled out for them... especially with an increasing number of people changing their names from Smith to Smithe, Smyth, Smythe, etc. Let's say Ms. Black walks into the hospital to check on the status of her daughter. Lucy Black is doing fine in a recovery wing. Cynthia Blacque, however, was recently introduced to the gang at the morgue as the latest occupant. Now, let's say our stereotalkin' receptionist hadn't "axed" for the spelling of "Black" and directed our star piece of poon-tang to the morgue. Not only is our featured hussy now in the grips of emotional trauma because her poor Lucy is dead... but imagine the anger that follows the moment of relief when she sees the body and realizes that a mistake has occurred.

"Hello, is this the offices of Dewy, Cheatum, and Howe? I have two words for you.... CHA-CHING."

Oh, I'm sorry... we're talking about problems with hyenas here. I should say BLING-BLING.

I guess the receptionist should have stuck to doing renditions of "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" in the cotton fields than trying to join the rest of Naylor's world where there's only one spelling of "Black," and it starts with an "N."

But, hey, we can't all be as on-the-beam as Fisk. Fucking yer sister gives you super smarts.
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Jerry Collins
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Posted: 10/13/2004 7:54:15 PM     Post subject: spot on!  

Well said Zen shu!
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Shmorky
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Posted: 10/13/2004 11:40:27 PM     Post subject:  


Choose Better Days. It's not drawn by a closet Pedophile.

-Todd


Yeah I know, he's out of the closet!
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Computolio
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Posted: 10/14/2004 3:02:15 AM     Post subject:  

Choose Better Days. It's not drawn by a closet Pedophile.

-Todd


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHA
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Shmeckopolis
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Posted: 10/14/2004 9:52:11 AM     Post subject:  

ZenZhu is awesome....
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Strychnine Velcro
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Posted: 10/14/2004 2:46:43 PM     Post subject:  

(The usual goodness)


Someone really ought to be archiving some of these Zhuposts for posterity. They're too well written and enjoyable to be lost in the mists of forum time, unseen by casual visitors. Seriously.
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ZenZhu
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Posted: 10/14/2004 3:07:03 PM     Post subject:  

I came across a flashback on TV the other night that reminded me that this whole angle of a cynical kid that is much, much smarter than the people around them who embody one or more of the stereotypical foibles we see people submit to on a daily basis, and isn't afraid to tell it like it is was done before, and much better than Better Days could ever hope to be. MTV called it Daria.

The only thing that sets Better Days apart from Daria in the category of works featuring a youth that is so much better adjusted and well-informed than their adult counterparts is that Daria never fucked Quinn.
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Skunkfuckers Inc.
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Posted: 10/14/2004 6:31:43 PM     Post subject:  

ZenZhu is awesome....

I wish we could Heart and Punch people on here. I'd heart that boy something fierce, I would.
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ZenZhu
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Posted: 10/14/2004 6:40:56 PM     Post subject:  

Thanks for the kind words, guys, but I'm just laying out a few thoughts, theories, and shitload of armchair psychology under the guise of a vague attempt at humor.
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Mastertran
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Posted: 10/14/2004 7:01:52 PM     Post subject:  

Well you are awsome Zenzhu, plus you've got a cool name. But back on topic here I noticed Jay Naylor sure draws lots of kids, tons of them in fact with barely any clothing. In fact I seem to remember a page of his that had Lucy dancing in her panties. He really put way to much effort into that one.
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MagKnightX
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Posted: 10/14/2004 8:14:09 PM     Post subject:  

By the way, Zen, is that you in your avatar, or some other wierd old bald guy?
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ZenZhu
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Posted: 10/14/2004 9:00:01 PM     Post subject:  

It's one of the guys from Banzai! a British show that kind of parodies the wacky Japanese game shows. Despite the arms raised about it being racist, it was actually developed by four Japanese guys.
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Donotsue
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Posted: 10/14/2004 9:23:01 PM     Post subject:  

Hee... it was on in Funland too...=)

Betting... ENDS!
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Michael Hirtes
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Posted: 10/15/2004 12:19:02 AM     Post subject:  

The only thing that sets Better Days apart from Daria in the category of works featuring a youth that is so much better adjusted and well-informed than their adult counterparts is that Daria never fucked Quinn.


There once was a kid named Fisk
who took a really big risk.
He screwed his kin
(that's a definate sin)
And now everybody is pissed.
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Donotsue
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Posted: 10/15/2004 12:27:29 AM     Post subject:  

Do it, brother Beavis!! =)



Would you like to see my port-folio?
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The New Meat
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Posted: 10/15/2004 2:16:57 AM     Post subject:  

It's one of the guys from Banzai! a British show that kind of parodies the wacky Japanese game shows. Despite the arms raised about it being racist, it was actually developed by four Japanese guys.


I think I've seen that one. Is that the one where they have all sort of wacky contests and the audience at home is supposed to bet who wins? That show rules!
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Paul
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Posted: 10/15/2004 12:27:02 PM     Post subject:  

It's one of the guys from Banzai! a British show that kind of parodies the wacky Japanese game shows. Despite the arms raised about it being racist, it was actually developed by four Japanese guys.

Something's fucked when people can't even poke fun at their own culture/nationality/ethnicity without someone accusing them of being racists. It's like how Sofia Coppola received lots of "hey, racist stereotype!" complaints about the hyper Japanese talk show host in "Lost in Translation" - despite him being a real guy with a real talk show, where he behaves just like he does in the movie.
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ZenZhu
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Posted: 10/15/2004 1:48:24 PM     Post subject:  

In California, my wife knew a lady that was both an avid jogger and as Italian as could be. She wanted to have a personalized license plate that read JOGN WOP. But, some "culturally sensitive" folks got up in arms about it and she wasn't able to get the plate.
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Jerry Collins
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Posted: 10/15/2004 7:16:09 PM     Post subject: Obviuos Man Strikes Again!  

So? Bottom line?: Jay is messed up and his comic is creepy.okay,good,let's go on to something else...like...I duuno,Zen shu, you want to feild this one?(Jerry)
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Jerry Collins
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Posted: 10/15/2004 7:17:54 PM     Post subject: I'm a bloody moron!  

that should be field that one..let's here it for the Fulton County School system,rah DUH rah!
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The New Meat
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Posted: 10/15/2004 8:08:19 PM     Post subject: Re: I'm a bloody moron!  

that should be field that one..let's here it for the Fulton County School system,rah DUH rah!


Huh?
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Rankin
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Posted: 10/16/2004 1:27:22 AM     Post subject:  

Here's one for the pedophiles.
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Kadius
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Posted: 10/16/2004 1:35:04 AM     Post subject:  

Here's one for the pedophiles.
Needs more "You're going to hell" in flashing text.
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Michael Hirtes
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Posted: 10/16/2004 2:11:11 AM     Post subject: Re: I'm a bloody moron!  

that should be field that one..let's here it for the Fulton County School system,rah DUH rah!


Huh?


Jer's probably saying something about the Fulton County school system, where Naylor may have likely went to as a kid (both Jay & Jer live in the Atlanta area).
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Jerry Collins
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Posted: 10/27/2004 8:47:43 PM     Post subject: SKOOL  

Let's face it, I'm the product of 60/70s era S.E. American education systems(don't make 'em too smart,we'll need more soldiers and workers!)So you folks wonder why Jay and I are so screwed up?Jay got the brunt of the Cobb County 80's era crap!(Marching and heiling,heiling and marching!)I was lucky I was bossed around by rich red necks,Jay,He was doomed to follom the suburbia uber alles of Reagan youth sqauds from the get go,Me I broke my programming,Jay,he's still stuck in that Joe Mc Carthy/Harry Anslinger/George Lincoln Rockwell mind set,And it appears he won't change...poor sap!
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Kadius
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Posted: 10/27/2004 9:48:17 PM     Post subject: Re: SKOOL  

(don't make 'em too smart,we'll need more soldiers and workers!)
You've figured out their master plan. Better make yourself a tinfoil hat and watch for black helicopters. They're everywhere.

Me I broke my programming, Jay,he's still stuck in that Joe Mc Carthy/Harry Anslinger/George Lincoln Rockwell mind set, And it appears he won't change...poor sap!
I guess he does seem like one of those ultra american fanatics. I wouldn't be that suprised if one day he starts spouting off stuff like 'seperate but equal' and 'there's limits to freedom'.
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Kooshmeister
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Posted: 10/30/2004 7:10:10 AM     Post subject:  

I'm late on this one. Personally, the part I found the most disturbing was the fate of Principal Longfellow. Did he deserve to DIE? The arguement that he should perish would only hold water if Fisk's mom had died. But she didn't. Therefore Longfellow's fate was totally disproportionate to his crime. If anything, they should've just beaten him into pleading guilty, rather than torturing him to death...

Okay, yeah, so he's a bad guy and all, and maybe it's cliched to thing this way but... God, it sickens me when the "good guys" are like that. And Naylor doesn't even try to present it as some anti-hero thing... the way in which it's done it's as though Naylor honestly thinks that murdering Lungfellow was the right and just thing to do.

I don't condone rape and think rapists deserve to be punished but... Eew. Just, eeew. You're sick, Jay Naylor.
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Anonymous
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Posted: 10/30/2004 7:38:15 AM     Post subject:  

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Shmorky
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Posted: 10/30/2004 9:07:34 AM     Post subject:  



ee he he he
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MagKnightX
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Posted: 10/30/2004 4:13:15 PM     Post subject:  



Good 'ol Shmorky, who TOOK THAT DOWN FOR A REASON, DINGUS.
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Undercover Agent Zenu
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Posted: 10/30/2004 4:54:38 PM     Post subject:  

Good 'ol Shmorky, who TOOK THAT DOWN FOR A REASON, DINGUS.


... so quote it again. :roll:
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Shmorky
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Posted: 10/30/2004 5:47:29 PM     Post subject:  



Good 'ol Shmorky, who TOOK THAT DOWN FOR A REASON, DINGUS.


Relax. I just took it off my own server. He can host it if he wants. :)!
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Mastertran
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Posted: 10/31/2004 4:03:13 AM     Post subject:  

You know I also felt the death of Longfellow was just wrong. I hate rapists with a passion but come on dissecting him is just way to biblical for me.
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Anonymous
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Posted: 10/31/2004 5:18:14 AM     Post subject:  

As I think it was Mitch who said, that would fucking make my day if a furry calls up my ISP asking for me to take down their shit, but it's quite a bit better after Schmorky's editting skills.
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Dogthing
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Posted: 10/31/2004 12:55:15 PM     Post subject:  

See, if it were true "eye for an eye conservative righteous rage", Longfellow would've been anally invaded with something large and wicked, like the hooked end of a crowbar or a football or firepoke.

Of course, this may or may not just be seen as more weird porn. :(
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Undercover Agent Zenu
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Posted: 10/31/2004 4:46:39 PM     Post subject:  

like the hooked end of a crowbar or a football or firepoke.


Don't stop now - you're in FURRY territory!
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ZenZhu
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Posted: 11/1/2004 3:05:40 PM     Post subject:  

A boiling Clorox enema.

Of course, it wasn't enough that it was just some friends of the ol' mattress mousketeer's late husbad. No.. it had to be guys in the government's hush-hush circles. So, not only is it some act of erectile disfunction-induced angsty revenge, but it's also da men in the black helicopters will arrange for a little "accident" if you piss dem off. And, of course, this abuse of authority will never come back to haunt them.

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Jerry Collins
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Posted: 11/1/2004 5:42:19 PM     Post subject: Good advice  

simply put:"RRRRUUUUUUUNNNNNN!!!!!"(or make a very deep,deep,DEEEEEEP bomb shelter... Happy Holidays children!
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ZenZhu
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Posted: 11/9/2004 3:47:12 PM     Post subject:  

A few weeks ago, the subject of a Crush Yiff Destroy post regarding Better Days surfaced on the Furrymilitia forum. I didn't read the piece, really, but it seemed to raise a few hackles among those who keep up with my website. It wasn't until the person mentioned above pointed the link out to me for some reason, that I gave it a cursory inspection. It consists of a scrolling page layout with footnoted jumplinks and poorly cropped, reduced samples of the comic, pointing out snippits that are put in context by the author of the essay in terms of either exposing hidden meanings, prejudices, and inconsistencies I exhibit with his divined notion of how a typical straw-man "conservative" should be. The cropped samples of my comic show embarassing levels of .jpg degridation to the point where I wondered why they didn't just leave them as .gifs and reduce the image sizes. My comic images are only 50 to 80kb in size and these are meer snippits. It's a weird thing to think about it, but it stood out to me and added to the atmosphere of non-seriousness already put forth by the desperately contrived conclusions of the self-admitted "leftie" author.

You know you've been burned when they start dissing your image conversion skills.
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Rankin
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Posted: 11/9/2004 4:01:59 PM     Post subject:  

A few weeks ago, the subject of a Crush Yiff Destroy post regarding Better Days surfaced on the Furrymilitia forum.

You know you've been burned when they start dissing your image conversion skills.


...and you have ADD when you don't realize that this is all part of a larger thread which was posted earlier, oh, a couple weeks ago, regarding the other, meatier bit of subject matter: Naylor rolls in catnip and declares: Hirtes is a turd. 8)
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ZenZhu
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Posted: 11/9/2004 4:10:05 PM     Post subject:  

Never really had Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, but I did have the original Star Wars RPG rulebook. It was guided by the same principles as the movies.... "Uhm...... just.. do stuff... what the fuck ever. Just wave this a bit and make humming noises."
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Michael Hirtes
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Posted: 11/9/2004 5:35:58 PM     Post subject:  

...and you have ADD when you don't realize that this is all part of a larger thread which was posted earlier, oh, a couple weeks ago, regarding the other, meatier bit of subject matter: Naylor rolls in catnip and declares: Hirtes is a turd. 8)


Yes. It's the old time-honored furry tradition of "Diss the Hirtes". Always good for boosting up one's own cred. Never fails to work on the goobers in FanboyLand. Got a problem? Why, rant about Hirtes. That'll get everyone's mind off of your own sorry-assedness and start thinking about some other target to hate.

I actually burst out laughing the way Jay describes the time I had turned $20 into $300 on the slots (was $120, actually) and lost most of it and went down to $50 the next day (this event was the closest Jay ever got saying anything that's anything near accurate) as if it were some evidence of my defective mental state. OMFG! Someone lost money in Vegas!!! Call in the CNN satellite truck and get us a live news feed, NOW!

Whatever happened to "Whatever goes on in Vegas, stays in Vegas"? Oh well.

Of course, to a guy like Jay, voting for anyone but Bush (even Libertarian) is a sign of a mental disorder, which probably would require a mandatory dosage of 9mm lead, if Jay had HIS way.

And as for Jay's other garbage about the little visit to the ranch, if you're visiting Vegas and you don't even have the slightest thought on doing it "Rat Pack style", then you are totally wasting a Vegas hotel room, my droogies. In fact, one of the funniest memories of the trip was the business card I brought back from the ranch after going there with James (my British friend that Jay refers to), and Shep had used a marker to draw in a "Blue's Clues" pawprint on it. I think I still have the souvenir somewhere.

The car accident? We lost a right hand mirror, we got our report taken by two MASSIVE LV highway patrol officers, James had to file a report with the car rental company, and that was it. I felt a bit down because the whole Vegas thing was my idea, and felt a bit responsible for it because the accident would be on James' record because of this trip. Fortunately, it didn't seem to hinder him when we went back to LV in '97 and '98 (those times, without Jay being around to wet-blanket things). Those trips went a LOT better and were a LOT more fun being Naylor-free, I'll tell you.

For Jay to be in "Sin City" and wanting to just spend that time just browsing shopping malls like a fanboy is truly sad. NEVER take a conservative christian with you to Las Vegas. It's like taking a mullah to a Kansas City BBQ.

Jay was really trying to wussify the whole trip for everyone and go about it as if we all were right-wing killjoys like he is. Here we all were in Las FUCKING Vegas, and Jay wanted everyone to act like we were at Walt Disney World. Or worse yet, at some furry con. Jeez!

As for Jay's comments about the other guys in the group, I don't see much of Shep because Shep doesn't really do much since he got a real job (security head at a nearby indian casino) and makes so much money that he doesn't need to draw furry art much anymore. I'm still cool with Mike, Mark, and James. Guess which one of the bunch I don't have a friendship with anymore?

Still, even at my worst, I've never resorted to belittling Jewish people because of their dietery traditions. That alone still puts me one inch closer to Heaven than Jay will ever be, no matter how hard he fondles his bible.
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Caz
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Posted: 11/11/2004 5:57:26 PM     Post subject:  

I'm not going to drone on and on about politcal views, its not within my intellectual capacity to sense any kind of poltical messages in Better Days. I thought the comic was good. Considering ignorance being bliss and all and not trying to read any kind of deeper meaning into it.

But I did have a couple of encounters on my own LJ with Jay, and finally looking through a few things added in here and there (sorry, 14+ pages was a little too much for me right now on the subject so I skipped a few) its sort of finally come together on why he responded to me the way he did. Each response was littered with a condescending "I'm right, you're wrong, deal with it" attitude.
Its strange that he does a comic like that yet has such narrow minded views.



Ahem... Initiating lurkmode again.
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The New Meat
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Posted: 11/11/2004 9:48:09 PM     Post subject:  


Its strange that he does a comic like that yet has such narrow minded views.


I disagree. I think it's entirely the right sort of comic to be written by a narrow-minded sorta guy.

Curious, what were you guys discussing in the LJ that pissed him off so much?
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 11/11/2004 10:39:36 PM     Post subject:  

I'm not going to drone on and on about politcal views, its not within my intellectual capacity to sense any kind of poltical messages in Better Days. I thought the comic was good. Considering ignorance being bliss and all and not trying to read any kind of deeper meaning into it.

But I did have a couple of encounters on my own LJ with Jay, and finally looking through a few things added in here and there (sorry, 14+ pages was a little too much for me right now on the subject so I skipped a few) its sort of finally come together on why he responded to me the way he did. Each response was littered with a condescending "I'm right, you're wrong, deal with it" attitude.
Its strange that he does a comic like that yet has such narrow minded views.



Ahem... Initiating lurkmode again.


Basically he's an anti-social @$$#0<{
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Caz
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Posted: 11/11/2004 11:14:47 PM     Post subject:  


Its strange that he does a comic like that yet has such narrow minded views.


I disagree. I think it's entirely the right sort of comic to be written by a narrow-minded sorta guy.

Curious, what were you guys discussing in the LJ that pissed him off so much?

I really don't see how you disagree, but er... Like I said about myself, its most likely beyond my intellectual capacity to figure it out.

In a nutshell I made a post about carbombing a hardcore conservative with a napalm laced bible, but not after attributing my attitude towards lack of medication, jumping headfirst into politics where I'm outgunned and being in over my head and having the media shove it all in my face anyway.
aka venting in an absurd way. (after reading about some issues regarding birth control pills)

His response was for me to go ahead and take my best shot at him. After some words back and forth, he decided to unwatch my journal. A last ditch runaway tactic because I wasn't agreeing with him, primarily on gay marriage and abortion such as he did on a post I made earlier with a major rant about imposing restrictions on freedoms, etc.
He wouldn't directly state his stance, but instead attacked mine.

Admittedly I had read the article on Better Days back when it was first posted, and parts of it that made fun of webcomics in general kind of ticked me off, (because parts of it were true for my own) but then I remembered where I was reading it so calmed down a bit. Anyway, for a while there I thought it was a bit harsh, but apparently I didn't know Mr. Naylor as much as others here. When folks were harping on him about things, I thought it was funny and untrue, but after dealing with him personally about it and realizing that the claims of his personality aren't really farfetched, it was an eyeopener.


Basically he's an anti-social @$$#0<{

I've encounted his type before in webcomics. They have a great comic so far as you know, but then the author/artist is a total let down in attitude.
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Paul
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Posted: 11/11/2004 11:21:44 PM     Post subject:  

But I did have a couple of encounters on my own LJ with Jay, and finally looking through a few things added in here and there (sorry, 14+ pages was a little too much for me right now on the subject so I skipped a few) its sort of finally come together on why he responded to me the way he did. Each response was littered with a condescending "I'm right, you're wrong, deal with it" attitude.
Its strange that he does a comic like that yet has such narrow minded views.

Well, since you skipped some pages, let me re-quote Mat Sherer, who for years was close with Naylor:

Jay's thinking is that he is always right. I've had many a discussion with him, and have determined two things. One, he believes that he cannot be wrong about anything. Anyone who doesn't share his opinions only does so because they aren't as educated as he is. If they would take the time to study and research the issues as carefully as he has (via conservative-leaning news outlets, of course), they would come to realize that he is absolutely right. The second thing I determined is that he has no sense of tact, or regard for anyone else's feelings. He doesn't care if he's insulting you to your face, as long as he's making you realize that he's right. So his problem isn't that I'm more open-minded, it's that I have continually proven myself incapable of intelligent thought by refusing to bow to his opinions, and he's become tired of trying to educate the unwilling to learn.


And I agree with The New Meat; that attitude on Naylor's part fits perfectly with the comic he makes.
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Mastertran
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Posted: 11/12/2004 3:35:11 AM     Post subject:  

You know the more and more I read about Naylor the more scared I get. And being a Peace loving hippie Green Party voting arab. The more it looks like I'm on his hit list
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 11/12/2004 3:41:47 AM     Post subject:  


Its strange that he does a comic like that yet has such narrow minded views.


I disagree. I think it's entirely the right sort of comic to be written by a narrow-minded sorta guy.

Curious, what were you guys discussing in the LJ that pissed him off so much?

I really don't see how you disagree, but er... Like I said about myself, its most likely beyond my intellectual capacity to figure it out.

In a nutshell I made a post about carbombing a hardcore conservative with a napalm laced bible, but not after attributing my attitude towards lack of medication, jumping headfirst into politics where I'm outgunned and being in over my head and having the media shove it all in my face anyway.
aka venting in an absurd way. (after reading about some issues regarding birth control pills)

His response was for me to go ahead and take my best shot at him. After some words back and forth, he decided to unwatch my journal. A last ditch runaway tactic because I wasn't agreeing with him, primarily on gay marriage and abortion such as he did on a post I made earlier with a major rant about imposing restrictions on freedoms, etc.
He wouldn't directly state his stance, but instead attacked mine.

Admittedly I had read the article on Better Days back when it was first posted, and parts of it that made fun of webcomics in general kind of ticked me off, (because parts of it were true for my own) but then I remembered where I was reading it so calmed down a bit. Anyway, for a while there I thought it was a bit harsh, but apparently I didn't know Mr. Naylor as much as others here. When folks were harping on him about things, I thought it was funny and untrue, but after dealing with him personally about it and realizing that the claims of his personality aren't really farfetched, it was an eyeopener.
.


Join the club. You're not the only one to go through that and probably won't be the last.
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The New Meat
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Posted: 11/12/2004 8:21:11 PM     Post subject:  


Admittedly I had read the article on Better Days back when it was first posted, and parts of it that made fun of webcomics in general kind of ticked me off, (because parts of it were true for my own) but then I remembered where I was reading it so calmed down a bit.


Just out of morbid curiosity, what ticked you off about the article's statements about webcomics in general? Did you think them inaccurate? Or too close to home?
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Tailgunner
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Posted: 11/17/2004 2:50:40 AM     Post subject:  

OK, I believe that this Naylor person has redeemed himself from the incest debacle.

The comic is featuring handguns, and he does seem to know a thing or two regarding them.

For example, the personal protection equipment they are wearing, ear plugs and safety glasses, both usually worn at a range. Also, the way the woman is holding the handgun, it is the correct way to hold a pistol while firing it. Healso knows that one should never try to anticipate the gun firing, let it suprise you. And lastly, he includes her hands shaking nervously prior to her first shot. However, that seems to be the limit of his knowledge.

Perhaps he doesn't have the ability to draw her stance, but then again, I don't know the range he probably attends. The one thing I found wrong was her stance. The way I was trained, which is similer to how the cops are trained, when firing a pistol, stand at a 45 degree angle from your target. This helps minimize your siloette, helps keep the weapon stable, and keeps your firing arm in a straight line with your target. Naylor drew her body parallel to the target, meaning the pistol is aimed at a 90 degree angle from her body. This forces your firing arm to be at an angle with your target, or forces your weapon to at an angle with your arm, depending an how you look at it. Either way, it makes it a little more difficult to aim.

With the 45 degree stance, your weapon, wrist, and weapon arm is in line with the target, meaning all you really have to worry about is moving the weapon up or down. However, if you have to aim left or right, you can simply turn your hips, and once you are in line again, you can simply just stop turning. With the 90 degree stance not only are your arms moving up or down, but side to side a little as well, AND the weapon is at an angle with your arm, forcing you to keep your wrists bent. This results with the weapon more likely to move in circles and requires more effort to keep still. It is much easier to lock your hips still with the 45 than it is your arms still with the 90.

Although, historically, the 90 degree stance was the standard for military police, which since was changed from advice given by the police department.

EDIT: As for the bullseye, I believe it, the first time I fired an M-16, I was hitting bullseyes as well, but it was sheer beginner's luck. What the certifier is looking for is firing spreads, not how many bullseyes you can hit.
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The New Meat
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Posted: 11/17/2004 9:01:55 AM     Post subject:  

OK, I believe that this Naylor person has redeemed himself from the incest debacle.

The comic is featuring handguns, and he does seem to know a thing or two regarding them.

For example, the personal protection equipment they are wearing, ear plugs and safety glasses, both usually worn at a range. Also, the way the woman is holding the handgun, it is the correct way to hold a pistol while firing it. Healso knows that one should never try to anticipate the gun firing, let it suprise you. And lastly, he includes her hands shaking nervously prior to her first shot. However, that seems to be the limit of his knowledge.

Perhaps he doesn't have the ability to draw her stance, but then again, I don't know the range he probably attends. The one thing I found wrong was her stance. The way I was trained, which is similer to how the cops are trained, when firing a pistol, stand at a 45 degree angle from your target. This helps minimize your siloette, helps keep the weapon stable, and keeps your firing arm in a straight line with your target. Naylor drew her body parallel to the target, meaning the pistol is aimed at a 90 degree angle from her body. This forces your firing arm to be at an angle with your target, or forces your weapon to at an angle with your arm, depending an how you look at it. Either way, it makes it a little more difficult to aim.

With the 45 degree stance, your weapon, wrist, and weapon arm is in line with the target, meaning all you really have to worry about is moving the weapon up or down. However, if you have to aim left or right, you can simply turn your hips, and once you are in line again, you can simply just stop turning. With the 90 degree stance not only are your arms moving up or down, but side to side a little as well, AND the weapon is at an angle with your arm, forcing you to keep your wrists bent. This results with the weapon more likely to move in circles and requires more effort to keep still. It is much easier to lock your hips still with the 45 than it is your arms still with the 90.

Although, historically, the 90 degree stance was the standard for military police, which since was changed from advice given by the police department.

EDIT: As for the bullseye, I believe it, the first time I fired an M-16, I was hitting bullseyes as well, but it was sheer beginner's luck. What the certifier is looking for is firing spreads, not how many bullseyes you can hit.


Where I come from incest is not excused by knowing how to draw guns. If anything, it just makes you more suspect.

FAKE EDIT: So Naylor can draw guns right? SHOCKING
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ZenZhu
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Posted: 11/17/2004 4:14:24 PM     Post subject:  

Judge: "Do you have anything to say in your defense before I pass sentence on you for the brutal rapes and murders of nine 13 year old girls?"

Convict: "Well, your honor, I may have kept each of those girls bound with duct tape in my basement for several weeks while I had my way with them and kept them barely alive on rancid grits. And I may have dismembered them and buried their remains in several shallow graves out in the salt flats, but I want to call to your attention my comic strip. If you'll just overlook the fact that my online comic depicts my exploits in graphic detail, you'll notice that I have very accurately drawn the handguns whenever they appeared in the comic. You'll also notice that the police that are raiding my backwoods shanty in the January 12, 2003 update page are wearing the proper protective gear and the officer that shoots me in the leg is in the proper stance to accomodate for the kickback of his particular model."

Judge: "YOU ARE TEH WINNAR! NOT GUILTY!"
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Mastertran
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Posted: 11/17/2004 4:53:17 PM     Post subject:  

Good call ZenZhu Naylor is still a jackoff no matter how well he draws guns which he really sexually fixates on in the comic.
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Shmeckopolis
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Posted: 11/17/2004 8:16:39 PM     Post subject:  

Um, I don't think the "redeemed himself from the incest debacle" remark was 100% serious...
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Tailgunner
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Posted: 11/17/2004 10:25:42 PM     Post subject:  

Why do you people hate guns and in turn hate America?
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MagKnightX
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Posted: 11/18/2004 12:24:32 AM     Post subject:  

Tailgunner, is your account being hacked?

Anyway, even though I am completely obsessed with guns and own as large of an arsenal as I can afford (which is, unfortunately, small), no way in hell is Naylor in any way redeemed for knowing how to draw guns and how to shoot them...

And blading your body only really works if you're firing one-handed... an isosceles-stance is much better for defensive firing.
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Wayd Wolf
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Posted: 11/18/2004 1:06:52 AM     Post subject:  

:roll:

Is the universe still moving along in the same way or is this turning into a discussion on which gunfighting stance is best? What works is what you were doing when the other guy died and you didn't. End of story. For more creativity in firearms navel contemplation, see Gun Kata and have fun.

Back to the subject.

Naylor's sexual proclivities aren't work safe or child safe for that matter and best left to the fringes of human theoretical sexuality.

His politics are bizarre, but not because they're conservative which they really aren't as I know conservative values, but just because they are bizarre.

That's pretty much all you can say without beating a dead horse. Which is something that is no doubt some furry's idea of a turn-on.
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Mastertran
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Posted: 11/18/2004 1:28:59 AM     Post subject:  

Damnit now I can't say "Beating a dead horse" without having horrible nightmares over and over again. Thank you Wayd Wolf you have done your duty. :cry:
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creature
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Posted: 11/18/2004 6:42:24 AM     Post subject:  

Damnit now I can't say "Beating a dead horse" without having horrible nightmares over and over again. Thank you Wayd Wolf you have done your duty. :cry:


How about shooting a dead, bloated horse to see how far the guts fly when it explodes?
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Paul
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Posted: 11/18/2004 2:23:36 PM     Post subject:  

How about shooting a dead, bloated horse to see how far the guts fly when it explodes?

Cosidering some of the pics linked to in The Atrocity Archive, that's very likely some furry's idea of a turn-on, too. :cry:
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Rankin
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Posted: 11/18/2004 4:58:45 PM     Post subject:  

Cosidering some of the pics linked to in The Atrocity Archive, that's very likely some furry's idea of a turn-on, too. :cry:


Let's face it. Furries are fucked up. Otherwise, they wouldn't be furries.

To be perfectly frank, if there's a way for someone to get off on it, it will become a part of furry.
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ZenZhu
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Posted: 11/18/2004 6:10:25 PM     Post subject:  

You definitely couldn't call Naylor conservative, or liberal.. or a fence-sitter. It's almost like he draws from the extremes of each side and waves those flags regardless of whether or not they seem paradoxical. He comes off almost like a cross-burning conservative, but then shows you his treasure trove of porn. His politics seem to be some weird conglomeration of "if it feels good, do it, so long as you're not black, jewish, or trying to suggest you have the freedom to do it because it feels good y' damn hippie." It's kind of like a cop arresting someone for having a baggie of cocaine, lecturing the criminal on how his kind are the scourge of humanity..... and then going home and snorting the evidence off of a hooker's ass.

As for myself and guns, I don't hate them. I just don't see what the big deal about them is. I think they're all fine and dandy for sport shooting or responsible collectors. For myself, though, they just don't hold any allure. It seems to me that for many people, they're like a Hummer or a Scarab boat... just a big toy to make them feel big. A lot of people seem to want the surge of carrying it around and feeling like Dirty Harry, rather than collecting them because you enjoy sport shooting or appreciate the history of the evolution of modern firearms.

I guess you could say it's not the guns themselves many people respond poorly to... it's the person holding it. Take a cop who knows how to be responsible with one and respects its power as a tool he uses in his line of work, and you have a scenario where, personally, I have no problem with it. Take someone that has a basement of automatic weapons that can only be legally posessed with the firing capacity disabled who has managed to get the firing kits for them so that he can walk down the street feeling like his erections are bigger because of his little arsenal, and you have guns I have a problem with.

Take a guy I knew in college. I knew he collected handguns. I had no problem with them. He seemed like the kind of guy who just liked them like someone would collect swords or fossils or whatever. The day I was at a party at his house and he held one to my head as his idea of a joke, however, was the day I had a problem with his gun collection. A responsible owner would know you never point one at someone unless you intend to shoot them...... even if you are 99% certain there is nothing in the clip or the chamber.. you don't point it at someone. His little "joke" demonstrated he liked guns for the power trip... and totally ignored the responsibility that power demands.
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MagKnightX
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Posted: 11/18/2004 8:00:30 PM     Post subject:  

Take a guy I knew in college. I knew he collected handguns. I had no problem with them. He seemed like the kind of guy who just liked them like someone would collect swords or fossils or whatever. The day I was at a party at his house and he held one to my head as his idea of a joke, however, was the day I had a problem with his gun collection. A responsible owner would know you never point one at someone unless you intend to shoot them...... even if you are 99% certain there is nothing in the clip or the chamber.. you don't point it at someone. His little "joke" demonstrated he liked guns for the power trip... and totally ignored the responsibility that power demands.


Even if you are 100% certain, you don't pull that shit. That guy would have been unceremoniously dumped on his ass by any sporting club that gave a damn about safety, and if you had any evidence and the inclination, you could have had him tried for assault.

Now, hopefully this is the last long post about guns here, because we're here to mock furries/their art and habits, not discuss politics, but I'm just gonna say this. You're right, Zen, that one of the main reasons to own several guns is the value of collection. Most gunowners I know collect one or more certain types of firearms... for me, the big one is civilian versions of military rifles. And it's not really so much for the value of collection as it is for the other thing you said, the fun of shooting them. A day at the range can be a wonderful stress-reliever and a sporting event at the same time. You can also get the satisfaction of a job well done.

However, the third acceptable aspect of firearms ownership, self-protection, isn't to feel like Rambo or Harry Callahan. No concealed-carry-permit holder in their right mind is going to whip out their piece at the slightest provocation. Most will go to nearly any lengths to avoid having to draw... only to protect your life or the lives of others. If pepper spray, a taser, and a knife were effective, we'd gladly rather carry those, but the fact is, they aren't.

Now, to get us back on topic, you know, the title of the current storyline, "armed and amorous," seems to suggest to me that something's gonna end up happening between fisk's mom and her instructor. Assuming that this comic is autobiographical at all, I think we know why Jay's so screwed up: his mom was a total slut.
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Jerry Collins
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Posted: 11/18/2004 8:05:45 PM     Post subject: HEHEHE!  

This Just keeps getting better!
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The New Meat
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Posted: 11/18/2004 8:11:51 PM     Post subject:  


What works is what you were doing when the other guy died and you didn't.


You know, Wayd, we rarely see eye-to-eye, but that line there is truly the most awesome thing I've ever read.

Speaking as the resident left-wing loon, I don't have any issue with guns per se. I mostly agree with what Zen Zhu said, and, while the second ammendment isn't my favorite part of the constitution, I recognize that it's there just in case the government ever decided to take away the other ammedments. Though worth thinking about that when founding fathers wrote that, they were thinking of those muskets you have to reload after every shot.

What I find distasteful is the way that many gun owners fetishize guns and insist that any attempt to enforce some iota of safety legislation amounts to The Man trying to take their guns away.

I mean, we have cars. Before you can drive one, you have to prove that you know how to drive one.
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MagKnightX
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Posted: 11/19/2004 4:10:00 AM     Post subject:  

Speaking as the resident left-wing loon, I don't have any issue with guns per se. I mostly agree with what Zen Zhu said, and, while the second ammendment isn't my favorite part of the constitution, I recognize that it's there just in case the government ever decided to take away the other ammedments. Though worth thinking about that when founding fathers wrote that, they were thinking of those muskets you have to reload after every shot.


When they wrote the first amendment, they were thinking about printing presses that needed to be re-inked after every page and pens that needed to be re-dipped after every half-sentence or so.

I mean, we have cars. Before you can drive one, you have to prove that you know how to drive one.


Car's aren't listed in the constitution.

muststoparguingaboutguns muststoparguingaboutguns muststoparguingaboutguns
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creature
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Posted: 11/19/2004 8:35:23 AM     Post subject:  


Cosidering some of the pics linked to in The Atrocity Archive, that's very likely some furry's idea of a turn-on, too. :cry:


After about two days in hot Texas sun, you can get the guts to go about two feet or so. Loud pop, very loud pop.
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Michael Hirtes
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Posted: 11/19/2004 4:43:20 PM     Post subject:  

I think we know why Jay's so screwed up: his mom was a total slut.


Two words: Cartman's Mom

:wink:
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GoManVanGogh
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Posted: 11/19/2004 11:26:53 PM     Post subject:  

Take someone that has a basement of automatic weapons that can only be legally posessed with the firing capacity disabled who has managed to get the firing kits for them so that he can walk down the street feeling like his erections are bigger because of his little arsenal, and you have guns I have a problem with.


Ah, I see you've met Jim. :)
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creature
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Posted: 11/20/2004 8:29:19 PM     Post subject:  



Ah, I see you've met Jim. :)



Didn't he have to sell off a bunch because of his new kid?

God, I hope that little grows up to be a diesel dyke. That world would be a better place for it.
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Michael Hirtes
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Posted: 11/21/2004 5:41:56 AM     Post subject:  



Ah, I see you've met Jim. :)



Didn't he have to sell off a bunch because of his new kid?

God, I hope that little grows up to be a diesel dyke. That world would be a better place for it.


Actually, for years, Jerry & I had been joking about the day when either of Jim's kids "became of age" and announced to their parents that they decided to move to California to stay at the Prancing Skiltaire or renting out one of Steve Martin's spare bedrooms.
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thegunman
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Posted: 11/21/2004 9:01:14 AM     Post subject:  

Speaking as the resident left-wing loon, I don't have any issue with guns per se. I mostly agree with what Zen Zhu said, and, while the second ammendment isn't my favorite part of the constitution, I recognize that it's there just in case the government ever decided to take away the other ammedments. Though worth thinking about that when founding fathers wrote that, they were thinking of those muskets you have to reload after every shot.


When they wrote the first amendment, they were thinking about printing presses that needed to be re-inked after every page and pens that needed to be re-dipped after every half-sentence or so.

I mean, we have cars. Before you can drive one, you have to prove that you know how to drive one.


Car's aren't listed in the constitution.

muststoparguingaboutguns muststoparguingaboutguns muststoparguingaboutguns


you the man MagKnightX got to it before me(forgot about this topic) advances in technology don't mean a thing when it comes to our rights granted to us in the constitution. those musket that the people owned were of the same as the military in turn it equalized the two groups (government and the people) so that if the government turned on it's people they would have the means to regain control.

as for the car issue, guns are far more regulated then cars. one example is felons can drive but can't own a gun.
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creature
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Posted: 11/21/2004 10:33:35 AM     Post subject:  


Actually, for years, Jerry & I had been joking about the day when either of Jim's kids "became of age" and announced to their parents that they decided to move to California to stay at the Prancing Skiltaire or renting out one of Steve Martin's spare bedrooms.


Well, we know that the Groatling will either become jailhouse or be arrested for rape. Either way, funny.

I'm figuring his daughter will probably end up as an extra in a Star Wars fan movie. They need Wookie extras.
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 11/25/2004 5:16:40 AM     Post subject:  


Actually, for years, Jerry & I had been joking about the day when either of Jim's kids "became of age" and announced to their parents that they decided to move to California to stay at the Prancing Skiltaire or renting out one of Steve Martin's spare bedrooms.


Well, we know that the Groatling will either become jailhouse or be arrested for rape. Either way, funny.

I'm figuring his daughter will probably end up as an extra in a Star Wars fan movie. They need Wookie extras.


I still say, I don't care what you all say about Jim or his wife, but it's still really low for you all to take swipes at children. I don't care who they're parents are, you all, as adults, should at least have a little more class than that. Otherwise, how are any of you any better than the people you're smashing when you're dissing little kids (one being a, what 1 or 2 year old).
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 11/25/2004 5:22:43 AM     Post subject:  

OK, I believe that this Naylor person has redeemed himself from the incest debacle.

The comic is featuring handguns, and he does seem to know a thing or two regarding them.

For example, the personal protection equipment they are wearing, ear plugs and safety glasses, both usually worn at a range. Also, the way the woman is holding the handgun, it is the correct way to hold a pistol while firing it. Healso knows that one should never try to anticipate the gun firing, let it suprise you. And lastly, he includes her hands shaking nervously prior to her first shot. However, that seems to be the limit of his knowledge.

Perhaps he doesn't have the ability to draw her stance, but then again, I don't know the range he probably attends. The one thing I found wrong was her stance. The way I was trained, which is similer to how the cops are trained, when firing a pistol, stand at a 45 degree angle from your target. This helps minimize your siloette, helps keep the weapon stable, and keeps your firing arm in a straight line with your target. Naylor drew her body parallel to the target, meaning the pistol is aimed at a 90 degree angle from her body. This forces your firing arm to be at an angle with your target, or forces your weapon to at an angle with your arm, depending an how you look at it. Either way, it makes it a little more difficult to aim.

With the 45 degree stance, your weapon, wrist, and weapon arm is in line with the target, meaning all you really have to worry about is moving the weapon up or down. However, if you have to aim left or right, you can simply turn your hips, and once you are in line again, you can simply just stop turning. With the 90 degree stance not only are your arms moving up or down, but side to side a little as well, AND the weapon is at an angle with your arm, forcing you to keep your wrists bent. This results with the weapon more likely to move in circles and requires more effort to keep still. It is much easier to lock your hips still with the 45 than it is your arms still with the 90.

Although, historically, the 90 degree stance was the standard for military police, which since was changed from advice given by the police department.

EDIT: As for the bullseye, I believe it, the first time I fired an M-16, I was hitting bullseyes as well, but it was sheer beginner's luck. What the certifier is looking for is firing spreads, not how many bullseyes you can hit.


Yes, 3 weeks to show that he knows how to use and draw a gun at a shooting range. Exciting (and he cracks on my writing.). 2 pages a week comics may want to be paced a bit faster.
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creature
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Posted: 11/25/2004 8:57:25 AM     Post subject:  


I still say, I don't care what you all say about Jim or his wife, but it's still really low for you all to take swipes at children. I don't care who they're parents are, you all, as adults, should at least have a little more class than that. Otherwise, how are any of you any better than the people you're smashing when you're dissing little kids (one being a, what 1 or 2 year old).


Oh, I have yet to begin to take swipes at people. It's all good, though. Personally, I wish no ill will towards the Groats. They generate enough on their own that anything I'd add would be crumbs.
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bobby
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Posted: 11/25/2004 9:12:16 AM     Post subject:  

jesus christ this thread is too long oh god stop
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Shmeckopolis
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Posted: 11/25/2004 11:47:58 AM     Post subject:  

And you posting in it doesn't help. =P
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bobby
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Posted: 11/25/2004 12:52:45 PM     Post subject:  

you either.

NEENER NEENER

oh shit
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creature
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Posted: 11/26/2004 7:23:25 AM     Post subject:  

Bobby, you've offically hit a new low. And that's impressive knowing you.
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Michael Hirtes
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Posted: 11/26/2004 3:37:52 PM     Post subject:  

I still say, I don't care what you all say about Jim or his wife, but it's still really low for you all to take swipes at children. I don't care who they're parents are, you all, as adults, should at least have a little more class than that. Otherwise, how are any of you any better than the people you're smashing when you're dissing little kids (one being a, what 1 or 2 year old).


Today's "Shauntae Defends Teh Fandumb" is brought to you by Ford. Makers of quality cars and trucks. Have you driven a Ford lately?




PS: Jim's "little kids", as you apparently do not know, are notorious in furrydumb for running around cons and randomly sucker-punching people in the nuts. Jim not only doesn't punish this behavior but actually encourages it.

Just thought you should know about this little bit of data, Mister Howard.
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Ebonyleopard
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Posted: 11/29/2004 6:56:21 AM     Post subject:  

I still say, I don't care what you all say about Jim or his wife, but it's still really low for you all to take swipes at children. I don't care who they're parents are, you all, as adults, should at least have a little more class than that. Otherwise, how are any of you any better than the people you're smashing when you're dissing little kids (one being a, what 1 or 2 year old).


Today's "Shauntae Defends Teh Fandumb" is brought to you by Ford. Makers of quality cars and trucks. Have you driven a Ford lately?




PS: Jim's "little kids", as you apparently do not know, are notorious in furrydumb for running around cons and randomly sucker-punching people in the nuts. Jim not only doesn't punish this behavior but actually encourages it.

Just thought you should know about this little bit of data, Mister Howard.


First of all, your broke ass hasn't been to a con in close to what, a decade now so any count from you about something is going to be dated (and might a note you probably would be better off saying child, since one is still restricted to a stroller).

2, it's nothing about defending furry fadom, but picking the line of what's exceptable for an adult's behavior. If a child is bad then a child is acting like a child, let's not also have the adults doing so. And if you can't at least see where as an adult making fun of a child that can't defend themselves is a bit base behavior for someone well over 30, then maybe you should get out of your mom's basement long enough to interact with the adult world instead of living on the net 24/7 continuing to prove how you've not only wasted tax payer money on the education you got, but continue to do so everyday you continue to breath and collect free cash with little effort to do anything for yourself.

And frankly, I dought Jim's boy would have sucker punched you in the nuts, cause I'm sure nobody had ever actually done an examination on you to prove that they exist and if they do, I'm sure for some reason or another you probably had it coming to you anyway.

I mean go figure, an adult that acts worst than any child a person probably knows cracking on a kid that was probably 5 last time you saw him.

All I can say is, from what I saw of the kid just a week ago, on a personal level, he's much better behaved and has his HDAD problem being attended to. Oh, but that's right, we're not to take a real disability of a child serious, while we're supposed to continue to give you passes for what ever phantom excuse you gave the government to get money to waste on the internet and porn pictures of harem barely legal mouse girls.

(Sorry folks, kids are my one sore spot).
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mouse
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Posted: 11/29/2004 7:20:37 AM     Post subject:  

Yeah... anyway...

I like the new '05 Mustang.

They got the 60's 'stang styling cues to it... fucking awesome idea. Very happy to see it.

GT package - 300+ ft-lbs torque and 300+ hp. Awesome.
reasonably priced too. (especially for me since I get the A-plan)
If I had the money/skill to do so on my own I'd throw the blower for that 4.6L (or 5.4L, whichever it is) motor on it and have one hell of an aggressive ride.

I was dead-set on one getting one till I realized Im really in no financial shape to be buying a new car... or any car for that matter
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Jerry Collins
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Posted: 11/29/2004 7:03:25 PM     Post subject:  

Me ,I like the "37 Cord and the '48 Buick m'self!Now before Ebonic Leper has a nother pissy fit,can we end this stupid thread?Jim groat 's a fool for putting his fan-ac before his family,Jay is still an EVIL loser, and Ebony leper is a prize chump with no grasp of reality or what a putz he's made himself into...Go back to a.f.f. schmendrick!and stop wasting everybody's time!
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Computolio
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Posted: 11/30/2004 1:50:21 AM     Post subject:  

ALRIGHT ALREADY
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