Crush...Yiff...Destroy!

The New Meat · Vociferator Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 660

Kinda, vaguely, sorta related. It's an interesting article about our love/hate relationship with big scary carnivores.

http://www.alternet.org/envirohealth/20639/

aimore · Qualificator Joined: 02 Dec 2004 Posts: 12

Yeah. Peoples THINK they are a huge carnivore, giving lots of reverences to these animals but at the real life all the carnivores are going to extinction.

ZenZhu · TOP POSTER! Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 1510

I figure it's a similar phenomenon to what you see at Renaissance faires. Everyone is a lord, lady, or knight... when, if they had actually lived in the middle ages, would have been more likely to be a leperous dung farmer. Of course, it's not as fun to play a leperous dung farmer as it is the king of the jousting tournament with a trumpy wench on each arm. I mean.. even if you block the lance with your shield or wagon wheel or whatever dung farmers use when jousting, you have to pretend like your arm dropped off.

Anyway, I think it's pretty similar to that, or the folks that fancy themselves vampires, otherkin, or even the skinny white boys that dress up like "gangstas" and fancy themselves "playas." It's an attempt at empowerment. They can't just learn to be secure in being themselves, because they don't like who they are or, as we see as a reoccurring theme, they feel they are weak, ugly, and powerless. So, they don this sort of internal costume to bolster themselves up. The problem is, if you tell yourself a lie enough times, you start to believe it.

Rather than learning to be confident as themselves, and investing effort in their true selves... like getting in shape, investing in a good wardrobe (and I'm not talking Armani suits.. I mean even economical clothes that suit them, as opposed to cobalt blue gym shorts, a black Inuyasha T-shirt, white tube socks, and a leopard-print fanny pack), good grooming, and all of the internal work they can do for themselves... they adopt this persona of some powerful carnivore, vampire, dragon, or even some kind of pop culture badass image like copying some rapper's look or something.

One of the ways my anthropomorphization of people differed from other furry artists was that I usually tried to figure out what animal reflected some aspect of the person, either physical or in their personality.. and use it as a kind of caricature, rather than simply drawing whatever animal they liked best or thought was cool. A good example of the schizm between how someone like these "mighty carnivores" perceive themselves and how others perceive them is the son of my former employer. He was a sneaky, lazy little so-and-so that basically subsisted in social circles by telling people what they want to hear, and then doing whatever he pleased. One day, he and I were talking about animals and such, as he had seen some of my doodles. When he described what he fancied himself as, his animal of choice was a pathner. Because, like all of these legends in their own mind, he fancied himself quiet, a loner, and oh-so deadly. Of course, ask anyone else what they would compare him to, and the first response was always a rat.

Most of these self-proclaimed charismatic carnivore types really don't measure up to the image they like to present themselves with. The folks that fancy themselves wolves, lions, tigers, bears, wolverines (save maybe the reputation as a glutton), etc. rarely measure up to such an image in the eyes of others. But, those are the animals that they can use to imbue themselves with a sense of empowerment.

On one hand, it's hard to deny anyone a coping mechanism that lets them get by in this crazy world. On the other hand, you can only get by so far by deluding yourself.. so, what may be a form of empowerment in some cases, becomes a handicap in others. It's not like they're committing some hideous sin by thinking themselves to be something they're not. Most people do that.. just not in relation to animals. For example - those folks that don't realize that just because a certain fashion is popular doesn't mean THEY look good in it. Still, it's highly annoying to be around someone that could be taken down by a 3rd grader talk about what a badass tiger spirit they are or some crap.

So, why don't we see more folks using pangolins, anteaters, sturgeons, toucans, aardvarks, kangaroo rats, naked mole rats, or groundhogs as their "personal furries?" They're just not flattering enough. It's kind of the animal equivalent of going out and buying a cherry red sports car, when what you know, deep down, that what you needed was a minivan.

(Incidentally, I'm always curious about what folks would depict me as, since I've never really known any furries face-to-face except my brother. I've never been able to select one, because I try and leave ego out of it... the boar being suitably self-effacing but also based on my Chinese zodiac. The general consensus seems to be an African elephant. Although the way I use animals for folks, I'm not large enough for that. That would be more for a linebacker or such.)

GoManVanGogh · Vociferator Joined: 18 Nov 2003 Posts: 365

One of the ways my anthropomorphization of people differed from other furry artists was that I usually tried to figure out what animal reflected some aspect of the person, either physical or in their personality.. and use it as a kind of caricature, rather than simply drawing whatever animal they liked best or thought was cool.

Oh, what animal do you see me as?

I kinda picture myself as a panda. I'm cute, puffy, and just want to eat, sleep and be left alone.

And no, I do not have a sexual attraction to Genma Saotome.

ZenZhu · TOP POSTER! Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 1510

Dunno... I'd have to know more than what I just see in text. I have to see and get a sense of the person first.

creature · Venter Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 240

Oh, what animal do you see me as?

I biker mouse from Mars.

aimore · Qualificator Joined: 02 Dec 2004 Posts: 12

I figure it's a similar phenomenon to what you see at Renaissance faires. Everyone is a lord, lady, or knight... when, if they had actually lived in the middle ages, would have been more likely to be a leperous dung farmer.

It‘s NOT a phenomenon, Zen. It’s a imagination.

Some religions believes in past lives or “reencarnation”. (This word in portuguese is ”reencarnação”. I don‘t found a similar english word in my dictionaire :P )
The Hinduism believes the Human‘s Spirit was a Animal’s Spirit at the past lives. I respect it. Budism believes in reencarnation too.
Allan Kardek built a religion (It would be a philosophy?) found in these idea to the Western society. As usual, ALL the ideas goes to corruption.
When people think about the possibilty of past lives, promptly imagines they were kings, nobles, lords, queens, blahblahblah or were huuuuuuge carnivore animals.

Look: the World has 6.000 Million inhabitants. Over the Centuries and Centuries, all world population sum do not exceed this. If each one thinking was a king, noble, lord, queen, blahblahblah at the past lives, it‘s LUDICROUS. Rererere

aimore · Qualificator Joined: 02 Dec 2004 Posts: 12

...
Most of these self-proclaimed charismatic carnivore types really don't measure up to the image they like to present themselves with. The folks that fancy themselves wolves, lions, tigers, bears, wolverines (save maybe the reputation as a glutton), etc. rarely measure up to such an image in the eyes of others. But, those are the animals that they can use to imbue themselves with a sense of empowerment.

...

So, why don't we see more folks using pangolins, anteaters, sturgeons, toucans, aardvarks, kangaroo rats, naked mole rats, or groundhogs as their "personal furries?" They're just not flattering enough. It's kind of the animal equivalent of going out and buying a cherry red sports car, when what you know, deep down, that what you needed was a minivan. ...

Basically, it could be a self projection on a mirror but amplified by a astronomic glass lens.
I draw Funny Animal since 1968. I took a rabbit to my “fursona” when I come to fandom at 2002. Before 2002, the term furry was unknown and I learnt about this by the worst way a year later.
But my rabbit is only a Character, in fact. I love him.

ZenZhu · TOP POSTER! Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 1510

It‘s NOT a phenomenon, Zen. It’s a imagination.

Sorry if my language is unclear. What I mean by phenomenon is a social phenomenon. So many people using their imagination to envision themselves as lords, ladies, wolves, vampires, etc. to bolster their ego, rather than learning to be secure in themselves outside of imagination... in the real world with most folks. The phenomenon comes from the groups of people you see doing this. I could also say it's a similar situation, or the same kind of behavior you see in some Ren Faire mentalities, if that makes my meaning a little clearer.

Yes, I'm familiar with the concept of reincarnation... being Buddhist and all, myself. Although, the concept of reincarnation I'm more familiar with in Buddhism isn't like the popular concept of reincarnation. The concept I'm familiar with suggests that it isn't so much one singular soul that is reborn into this world as, for lack of a better way to describe it, a collection of soul fragments from many lives. In fact, karma, as it has always been described to me, cannot be considered to be equivalent to the Christian concept of a soul. It's more like energies that are put out into the cosmos by your actions.... both positive and negative.

It's like if I jump into a pond and make a wave, that wave energy travels through the water, but the wave that hits the shore is not a part of me.. only caused or affected by my actions. But, with karma, there is a kind of "signature" to those energies caused by your actions... as if the wave that hits the shore carried some kind of invisible mark that says "ZenZhu did this."

So, a person builds up their balances of good and bad karma and, at the end of their life, the progression of their essence... not so much soul in the Christian sense... is affected by their karma. In some of the ways I have had it described, it's not even like a person's essence is "judged." I think there's considered to be a period of like 3 or 4 days where the essence/soul is encouraged through chanting and such to join with the light it will see. But, often the light is too bright to bear, and the essence still has attachments to this world... so it basically chooses to be reborn into this world to experience those things it enjoyed before... and rejects entering Nirvana. Hence, one of the reasons to cultivate non-attachment (not to be confused with detachment) during one's life, so as to make the essence/soul free of attachments that prevent it from wanting to enter Nirvana and give up worldly experiences in the cycle of life-death-rebirth.

Of course, that is described more from the Chinese and Tibetan Buddhist traditions. And I don't know how Hinduism views reincarnation. But, in the ways I am familiar with it, it's almost impossible to say one was Napoleon, or a king, or a wolf in a former life..... because the form you have now carries with it some of the energies from hundreds of thousands of previous beings.

It's kind of like taking a bunch of metal objects.. cars, trucks, machinery, tools... and melting them all down into a liquid state, and then using the recycled metal to make frying pans. You couldn't say the pan you held in your hand was a '57 Chevy in a former life, although some of the metal in it may have come from a '57 Chevy.

That's the thing that gets my goat about all of he self-proclaimed wolf spirits and such. It's not really self projection that's going on. What they're projecting into their character is what they would like to think they are, rather than the physical and personality traits they actually exhibit. Like in the case of my former employer's son I described, he would like to think the panther was a kind of self projection, when, really, it was wishful thinking. For those traits he exhibited in reality, a panther was one of the last animals that would suitably depict his nature.

Of course, with characters, it's not like you have to be totally realistic. If you really like wolves, but are 300 pounds and have the personality more befitting a mouse, you could just portray yourself as a fat, timid wolf. What I find obnoxious is the 300 pound folks that have the personality of a mule insisting that a musclebound lion or something is their true self.

And, really, we're pretty much talking about characters when we talk about any animal representations. A person's true self is who they are as a human being. Even if an African elephant, which I mentioned previously, were the ideal representation of myself... it remains nothing more than a representation.. a character.. that, really, kind of parodies or at least parallels the real you.. the human you.. may exhibit. For example, people say I remind them of an elephant because of the rather purposeful way I move, my size (though, again, I'm not tall enough for me to fancy myself as one... I'm barely 6'.. but I am built something like a linebacker, with broad shoulders and chest), and a few other things that elude me at the moment. But, it's not like it'd be the "true" me. It's simply an animal used for the sake of comparison and contrast and all in fun, really.

That's one reason the bulk of furries with "wolf totems" is also ludicrous. In many of the cultures that have such things, the idea is the animal.. or the natural and spiritual embodiment of that animal.... choses you.. not the other way around. In many Native American traditions, a person is likely to have different totems over the course of their life. It's not like the animal spirit says "I like Joe." and follows Joe home like a lost puppy. In many traditions, the idea is the spirit sees someone that could use their guidance.. and.. I guess you could say "enters into their life." There may be times in a person's life when their primary totem is a wolf.. not because they are wolf-like, but because the life-lessons the wolf totem is considered to teach in those traditions are something the person needs. If I remember, one of the things a squirrel embodies is the idea of frugality... saving for emergencies, college, etc... as shown by the behavior of storing nuts. A blue jay may also exhibit the same things. So, a person who really needs to rope in their spending may have a squirrel or blue jay totem for a while.

But, like anything, furries bastardize this concept to suit their wishes. So, a person who might actually be told by a true Native American shaman that they have a groundhog totem will fancy themselves to be an all-powerful mountain lion or something.

Another thing many of these traditions suggest is that the graces of an animal totem can be fickle. It apparently is possible to piss off your totem enough that it would abandon you. In Ebon's case, I imagine any wolf totem that may have had any interest him at some point has long since gone off to barf, and never returned.

I draw Funny Animal since 1968. I took a rabbit to my “fursona” when I come to fandom at 2002. Before 2002, the term furry was unknown and I learnt about this by the worst way a year later.
But my rabbit is only a Character, in fact. I love him.

Stoneth · Vociferator Joined: 01 Dec 2004 Posts: 545

Personally, I think the whole "animal X is my totem" holds about as much ground as a person putting on black clothes and a dog collar and instantly proclaiming themself to be goth.

For me, the whole wolf thing dates back to my childhood where at one point I developed a tremendous love/facination/affinity for wolves. It's this that led me to a love of werewolves and ultimately the furry fandom. Do I see the wolf as my totem? Not really. More as my favorite animal.

When I was in grade school we had an assignment where we had to draw out what animal we saw ourselves as and then ask our other classmates as to what animal they saw us as and draw that as well. The results were facinating. I knew one girl who saw herself as a monkey but others saw her as a parrot. (Or was it the other way arround? I forget.) I of course saw myself as a wolf, but others saw me as a dolphin.

Then there was my great-grandfather who gave nicknames everyone in his family. His nickname for me was "pisotio" which means coati. Only goes to show how the whole self-proclaimed-animal-totem thing doesn't hold very well. It's like choosing a nick-name.

ZenZhu · TOP POSTER! Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 1510

Yeah.. My mother's nickname for me was always "Moose." Of course, in the way I draw, that would be someone that's about 6'5" and kind of gangly, but not exactly a beanpole (that would make them more giraffe-like). I think she based it more on the Archie comics character than the animal.

I respect the concept of animal totems when coming from genuine practitioners of Native American or other shamanistic traditions, like Aboriginies.... and I mean folks that grew up with it, not folks that have "practiced" it for a couple of years. I figure an animal guide is the shamanistic equivalent of the concept of an angel in Christianity. If there are forces out there that seek to aid and guide us, it would be unsurprising that they would appear in a form that a person would relate to the most..... like how the true form of Vorlons in Babylon 5 varied with who was seeing it. But, coming from furries who read a couple of web pages about it, it's total bunk.

GoManVanGogh · Vociferator Joined: 18 Nov 2003 Posts: 365

Oh, what animal do you see me as?

I biker mouse from Mars.

God, that show sucked.

GoManVanGogh · Vociferator Joined: 18 Nov 2003 Posts: 365

In a former life, I was an egg bagel!

ZenZhu · TOP POSTER! Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 1510

"What were you, Charlie Brown?"

"I was a rock......."

(In reference to the "I got a rock." in the Charlie Brown Halloween special.)

creature · Venter Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 240

In a former life, I was an egg bagel!

And I speak from experience, that's a good thing. Everyone loves egg bagels.

Presea · Coadjutor Joined: 14 Nov 2004 Posts: 71

It's truly irritating.

A large chunk of furry personas/avatars/totems/otherkins based off of real animals are foxes, wolves, and cats. These are fairly common carnivorous animals (wolves being dogs) that feature heavily in folklore and expression. They have traits that many humans admire; therefore, furries flock to them. Less common ones but still popular are stuff like skunks, rabbits, and horses.

Usually the order of real animals (in terms of common-ness goes like this: common carnivore, respected mammal, mammal, bird, reptile, anything else. Gee, I wonder why everyone feels closer to mammals? :roll:

And of course, most based on fantastic creatures are dragons, unicorns, sphinxes, and whatnot. Stuff like manticores and basilisks are much rarer.

Paul · Vociferator Joined: 01 Feb 2004 Posts: 551

It just goes to show that despite all the multi-colored, multi-dicked, winged foxskunkhermtaurs, furries generally suffer from extreme lack of imagination. It's mostly just variations within a very small set of imagined or real species.

Squizzle · Qualificator Joined: 20 Dec 2004 Posts: 8

In a former life, I was an egg bagel!

Oh, well in a former life I was the egg bagel's son-- Egg Bagely, Jr.

Skunkfuckers Inc. · Needs to get out more Joined: 20 Jan 2004 Posts: 980

In a former life, I was an egg bagel!

Oh, well in a former life I was the egg bagel's son-- Egg Bagely, Jr.

OHMYGOD ALBINO SQUIRRELLYYYEEEEEEEEE!!!!

*glomps*

*eats head*

MMMMMM... white choc'lit :D

ZenZhu · TOP POSTER! Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 1510

Don't you know.... every single person on the planet was most recently a wolf in a former life.

Rankin · TOP POSTER! Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 1514

Oh, well in a former life I was the egg bagel's son-- Egg Bagely, Jr.

...that was friggin' awful. I mean that. Horrible.

...I giggled. :(

Skunkfuckers Inc. · Needs to get out more Joined: 20 Jan 2004 Posts: 980

Oh, well in a former life I was the egg bagel's son-- Egg Bagely, Jr.

...that was friggin' awful. I mean that. Horrible.

...I giggled. :(

What's really scary is yet again I was thinking the exact same damn thing as you did. To the letter, giggle and all.

Spooky.

Quantum Coyote · Venter Joined: 12 May 2004 Posts: 221

Usually the order of real animals (in terms of common-ness goes like this: common carnivore, respected mammal, mammal, bird, reptile, anything else. Gee, I wonder why everyone feels closer to mammals? :roll:

You had better mean common-ness in terms of how often people are fond of them and not their numbers in the wild, 'cause I'm 'bout ready to throw down and get heavily PEDANTIC on *your* ass!

It's truly irritating.

Then theres skunks. Omnivores, as we know. Whats with them? I'm a big skunkophile myself and I don't quite know for sure.. I figure that it's because they are basically outcasts and not very popular(with 'normal' folk), the way a good number of furries probably feel about themselves.

We could go on with all the other A and B list animals, and I'm not trying to start that, but skunks DO have quite a rank in the fandom.

ZenZhu · TOP POSTER! Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 1510

I figure the simple black and white makes for a striking patterning, making the image easily bold. The ample fur gives the illusion of sensual lushness and.. probably foremost.. Warner Brothers typecast them as oversexed horndogs.