Crush...Yiff...Destroy!

SpineDrinker · Recusant Joined: 29 Sep 2003 Posts: 12

~Just some thoughts and clairifycations~

Basicly, (if you didn't pick up on it) I was compairing the anime advancement and develupment to the furry one.
Basicly, I predict they will follow a similar timeline. Ill make a mock timelime using anime and suncoast video to show you what I mean.
0years: No anime in Suncoast video

+ 5 years: A few good select titles show up at suncoast, like robotech.
+10 years: Many anime title show up, crappy ones and good ones alike.
+15 years: Adult Swim airs. Anime porn is now availible at suncoast.

Basicly, I wonder if the whole furry thing is going to do same thing. Is furries a big enough thing to go "mainstream", or is it simply a funny little cultural niche, and will stay that way? I dont know, but fear that the answer is yes.

As far as acceptiblity, I guess i ment something more like market acceptiblity. Will it sell - in mass numbers? And will established companies sell it? Im sure you could buy yiff though ebay or something but thats not what I mean. Im talking 'bout selling in franchises, not your local "we got the crazyest shit you ever seen" store.

I should make this a poll, so we could see (outa 20 people mind you) what the consensus is.
Yes, furries will develup into a "acceptable meduim".
Or
No, furries will never go past the internet and a few minorly published comic books.

Perhaps this up comming episode of C.S.I may help predict the answer.

(for the record, I vote yes, but hope its no.)
(I should metion toonami somewhere and how foxkid and kidsWB is not like 50% imported cartoon.)

mouse · Coadjutor Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 662

~Just some thoughts and clairifycations~

Basicly, (if you didn't pick up on it) I was compairing the anime advancement and develupment to the furry one.
Basicly, I predict they will follow a similar timeline. Ill make a mock timelime using anime and suncoast video to show you what I mean.
0years: No anime in Suncoast video

+ 5 years: A few good select titles show up at suncoast, like robotech.
+10 years: Many anime title show up, crappy ones and good ones alike.
+15 years: Adult Swim airs. Anime porn is now availible at suncoast.

when you say "porn", what are you talking about ?
i mean i sort of stopped watching anime because of the awkward sexual shit i felt was getting in the way of the stories sometimes...but i could deal with that because it was just a different culture or whatever

what "porn" is suncoast selling ?

when i was watching anime (renting it from blockbuster and similiar places) it was all NC-17 rated usually regardless of content

Basicly, I wonder if the whole furry thing is going to do same thing. Is furries a big enough thing to go "mainstream", or is it simply a funny little cultural niche, and will stay that way? I dont know, but fear that the answer is yes.

As far as acceptiblity, I guess i ment something more like market acceptiblity. Will it sell - in mass numbers? And will established companies sell it? Im sure you could buy yiff though ebay or something but thats not what I mean. Im talking 'bout selling in franchises, not your local "we got the crazyest shit you ever seen" store.

I should make this a poll, so we could see (outa 20 people mind you) what the consensus is.
Yes, furries will develup into a "acceptable meduim".
Or
No, furries will never go past the internet and a few minorly published comic books.

Perhaps this up comming episode of C.S.I may help predict the answer.

(for the record, I vote yes, but hope its no.)
(I should metion toonami somewhere and how foxkid and kidsWB is not like 50% imported cartoon.)

i dont know , basically i guess my question is "what is the problem with it"

i think people are under the terribly misguided assumption that ALL furry stuff is fucked up ...why would you hope no

when a furry or furries quit drawing thier fucking characters and stupid shit like that and get down to writing stories and trying to be successful - things will change
i see absolutly no reason at all why not

especially if furry fandom started moving in the direction (i feel) it is supposed to

there are few starting to mess around with animation from what ive seen
im really kind of surprised this isnt more commonplace
especially since animation is easier to complete with a computer
if you have artistic talent , its very possible - look at shawn kellers furry fans
and that was just something he did for fun

"herbie" has some animation on his page that he did on his own ..hes done some animated gifs for i think yappyfox? who ever his one friend he drew a bunch of images for

trent halverston (sp?) he does that armadillo knight game which is actually really good for a flash game , his site is animated flash
you can also see his art on yerf

mary minch's mice comics looks really really good, i actually look forward to buying it when shes done with it
micecomics.com
some of her mice comics strips have been published elsewhere too - outside furry publishers

i havent read extinctioners but it seems shawntae howard is trying to create a reasonably marketable furry superhero comic
it looks well drawn

even in the world of furry porn
i personally feel that j bernal and that whole crew that do rare breed and sexyfur.com
they are trying to put together a high-quality straight-foward product for once
even more importantly this group seems to have some sort of grasp of marketing and 'hyping up ' a product
i think the wages of sin site is sexyfur.com/wagesofsin/

these examples are just off the top of my head im sure there are more

so you will someday see a furry fandom backed cartoon (for ex a anthro-animal adventure cartoon) at suncoast...provided the fandom gets its act together i see no reason why not

maybe a pg-13 rated cartoon (with a story somethign similiar to say wagners hepcats) , again i dont see why not

but seriously where is the assumption that this hypthetical cartoon is going to be some bizarre fetish thing

ok ya i been saying similiar sort of things on AFF but im comin from a different angle over there ...here, back in reality
i really dont see much of the nasty furry porn
its all out there for sure
and theres fucked up people out there who are real into it

but i still insist that there is a sector of furry fandom whose primary interest is anthropomorphic storytelling
you guys can tell me im wrong all you want ...i got a STACK of comics in my room showing otherwise

some someday i personally hope furry fandom has its own 'akira' (dont laugh)
because disney / WB / whoever sure as hell aint gonna do it
thats probably the only reason i want the fandom to shape up

altho thats a slightly skewed example as anime IN japan probably is not really a fandom type of thing

but you know what im saying right?

The New Meat · Coadjutor Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 327

Well, technically, you can already buy plenty of furry cartoons right off the shelf, such as, say, Animalympics, Watership Down, Rock 'n' Rule, Dot and the Kangaroo, just about every Disney and Loony Tunes cartoon ever made, all those animes with their damn catgirls, etc, etc...

So by "furry cartoon," I'm assuming that you're really refering either to a cartoon made BY furries or else a furry porn cartoon. If that's the case, I'm going to have to agree with Mouse on this one. No reason it shouldn't happen.

mouse · Coadjutor Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 662

Well, technically, you can already buy plenty of furry cartoons right off the shelf, such as, say, Animalympics, Watership Down, Rock 'n' Rule, Dot and the Kangaroo, just about every Disney and Loony Tunes cartoon ever made, all those animes with their damn catgirls, etc, etc...

So by "furry cartoon," I'm assuming that you're really refering either to a cartoon made BY furries or else a furry porn cartoon. If that's the case, I'm going to have to agree with Mouse on this one. No reason it shouldn't happen.

its really starting to hit home with me that since everyone and thier mom has a different definition of "furry" its damn near impossible to talk about it

and im not raggin on you at all, new meat, its just that your post made me really realize it
it kinda seems you misunderstood me, or i thought you were the one that didnt use the term fury to describe anthro-animal stuff not created by furries

what i am talking about is a cartoon produced by furries that is on par with the ones you mentioned "Animalympics, Watership Down, Rock 'n' Rule, Dot and the Kangaroo, just about every Disney and Loony Tunes cartoon " or whatever

and the only reason i feel it should come from furry or that it could

would be that for example: disney is usually limited in scope
other cartoons are usually FOR kids ..they are dumbed down into nothing
dont get me wrong,
i love looney tunes and comedy stuff its mainly what i like anyway, but many of the furry comics i have showed me how well these characters work in other settings (IMO)

creativity tends to be stifled in the sort of environment where this stuff usually comes from also (big animation studio with a BOTTOM LINE)
most stuff that people look back on as being really good was experimental or was independant and then later gained huge popularity

and several of the other things were few and far between
like watership down, the fritz cartoon (which if i understand correctly, crumb was less than pleased about)

id almost say they were flukes

now if i am talking about furry

im am totally 110% in the mindset (as best as i can understand it) of gallacci and all those other guys that originally gathered at whatever sci-fi con in the early 80s to talk about the use of the anthropomorphic animals in fiction

they saw it and recognized it in certain things (such as watership down and fritz and everything up until that point), and wanted to refine that and promote it

to be honest i think they had something there ..i think there IS something special there

that is really the ONLY way i can look at it, its also why it probably seems sometimes i dont have a sense of humor about furry...i either dont see what so funny, or when its something fucked up then i REALLY dont find it funny (on account of how fucked up it is, see?)

ive noticed far too many people have this internet-tunnel-vision particularly when it comes to "furry" ...whatever the fuck that means, i dont even know anymore

its part of the reason i find the fandom so fucking frustrating
look - practically ALL the structures are there for furry fandom to be more than fandom, its got its own publishers, it could be a launch pad for all things anthropomorphic, a talent pool, its own sort of self-sustaining economy already going (also i always thought it was unique and very cool that furry seemed initially to have some professionals IN the fandom..too bad thats over with)

to me it should be on the sci-fi model (apperently theres a diff between sci-fi & SF im not that into it to know..so if im causing confusion here im sorry)
where a lot of these people spend time thinking about science fiction and how to write it better ..some of these people are respected in other fields as being the authority on certain things
am i correct that some works are refined in the SF fandom before being 'finalized'?
where the fandom kind of serves the same functions as an APA would ?

then look at furry with all the fucked up shit just tack-welded to it
every single day im like.... what ..the ...FUUUUUCK

it just seems to me , that if someone wanted to do some science fiction cartoon/comic in the anthropomorphic style ..it would be real easy to network through (what it should have been) the furry fandom and get a team of competent people together who might be interested

i might have a biased view , because i like cartoons and stuff, but to me it seems that these things should naturally have a fanbase - like almost EVERYTHING does
i mean there are enough funny-animal cartoons and comics out there, you would think there is somewhere people who like them hang out
too bad when you get to most logical choice - its a shithole

the fandom should be collaborating on projects and trying to improve the anthropomorphic thing as a whole, and promote whats already out there

and 'fans' should just be 'being fans' and not creating bad publicity and driving sane people away
but since that isnt whats goin on , and because of what IS

look at how real fans have been scattered to the wind
some are still in furry , some are MIA, some still do all the same shit they used to only now they say they "arnt furry"

i want some of roofie's
GOD DAMMIT brand beer
http://www.purplepussy.net/d/20031001.html

(i actually really agree with kelly on this whole 'foody' thing that hes doing right now ..the strangers with candy ref funny as hell ..but i think he missing the stuff i mentioned above...i dont feel anthropomorphics are 'retarded' nor do i feel having a fandom in common is either ...dressing up in costume / roleplaying..thats a different story - but furry didnt form around a stupid idea like that at all - no matter how early on it was derailed..i think the ORIGINAL as in very first idea was actually pretty intellectual)

btw i wonder if this comic hes doing is in anyway related to anthrocon ?

Anonymous · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 767

...by furry i mean adult oriented stuff, doesnt hafta be porn, just stuff like sabinaonline or something. LooneyToons is all happy and slapstick, while something like SabrinaOnline is well, sorta, more serious, and even depressing at times. Drama and all that. I cant really ever remember LoonyToons getting dramatic, or depressing really. Bugs never got (seriously) Terminally ill or anything.
LoonyTimes never made we cry, or envoked any other emotion besides laughter, um, which sorta isnt really an emotion.

But, to the flip side, Disney, sononimus with childrens programing, killed Simba's dad! Thats sad shit man! But then again, isnt the lion king like the patron film of all furries? Even still, lion king was pg-13 or lower.

Its when its gets rated R that peaks my interest.

Back the day, before i had ever heard of the term "anime" the first anime i saw was, i believe, Vampire Hunter D, on the SciFi channel.
-This was the first time I saw a cartoon VIOLENTLY KILL another person with accutal blood and gore, and it totally freaking blew my mind-
I mean, i saw bugs hit elmer in the face with bat or something, but elmer never gushed blood, and he always got back up.
Never the less, i was now hooked on these strange japanese cartoons, and saw Akira shortly after Vampire Hunter D. Akira had ...PLOT... and INTRIGUE! Stuff i had never in a cartoon before.
I loved this stuff and instantly became fan, and at some point learned it was reffered to as anime.

But, it must be noted that the atristic style bewteen Vampire Hunter D, and Micky mouse are worlds differnt.

I guess what im concered about is charactors that look like Bugs or Micky cutting people in half, but now that i really think about it, I bet the kinds furries that maime people, wont look anything like bugs or micky. These killer furries wont be inspired by Chuck Jones, or Walt Disney, but something more like HeavyMetal - or something. In fact, now that i think of it, most furry art is really more anime inspired than Walt Or Chuck.
So, i guess my problem with furries is the thought of Micky cutting of heads and banging minnie. I must i fell that charactors with that specific art style should stay happy slapstick and generally wholesome. I guess thats why i never really had a problem with anime, that art styles where just so totally different.

So, in short, i dont consider bugs or micky furry, but lion king starts skirting that line reeeaaal close. But, like i said about artwork, lion king doesnt look any thing like bugs or micky. - Its artwork is more mature and serious. If simba got run over by a bus, he wound not go as flat as a pancake, then inflate himslef with his thumb, but rather, he would spill his entrails every where and die a slow and painful death. Yup, its all about setting and mood that makes it furry or not, im my opinion.
Disney's Robin Hood (the one with the fox) what kinda furry too, i mean, the townsfolk with all sad and opressed. Plus robin is trying to get some maid maryann poon-tang the whole film. If robin had killed the sheriff, with blood and everything, then it would have been full fledged furry.

So, finally, as shortly and as clearly and i can state it, what makes something furry, is target audience.
Kids, not furry; adults, furry.
What do you call children cartoons with upright-walking animals then? You call them childrens cartoons, cus thats what they are.

Oh, and one of the many anime porns at suncoast was la blue girl, or maybe cool devices (cant remember which specificly,) and the cover had more tenticles then you could count.

Mitch · Coadjutor Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 290

creativity tends to be stifled in the sort of environment where this stuff usually comes from also (big animation studio with a BOTTOM LINE)
most stuff that people look back on as being really good was experimental or was independant and then later gained huge popularity

Yeah, Snow White, Fantasia, Bambi, classic animations like that were a struggle to get made at the time and wouldn't have been if Walt himself hadn't been behind them. A lot of people forget that Walt was a big creative force in his day, and willing to experiment with new stuff. I mean, for God's sake, he even collaborated with Salvador Dali of all people! After he died, of course, it all changed.

to me it should be on the sci-fi model (apperently theres a diff between sci-fi & SF im not that into it to know..so if im causing confusion here im sorry)

I would say that someone who uses "sci-fi" to mean SF is just a newbie, no harm intended. Though some people who can't stand SF use it as a deliberate dig, meaning "that crazy Buck Rogers shit", which is why it used to be slightly unpopular in the fandom.

where a lot of these people spend time thinking about science fiction and how to write it better ..some of these people are respected in other fields as being the authority on certain things
am i correct that some works are refined in the SF fandom before being 'finalized'?

Yes. On rec.arts.sf.composition you get Real Live Authors discussing probs they're having with their work, and tossing ideas about, and answering dumb questions from fans...

it just seems to me , that if someone wanted to do some science fiction cartoon/comic in the anthropomorphic style ..it would be real easy to network through (what it should have been) the furry fandom and get a team of competent people together who might be interested

Extinctioners? Or did you mention that earlier??

i might have a biased view , because i like cartoons and stuff, but to me it seems that these things should naturally have a fanbase - like almost EVERYTHING does
i mean there are enough funny-animal cartoons and comics out there, you would think there is somewhere people who like them hang out
too bad when you get to most logical choice - its a shithole

A lot of discussion nowadays takes place on web forums instead of newsgroups, trouble being a.f.f. is an obvious location and most of the forums are pretty obscure. But hey, if you want to set up a subforum here for that sort of thing, email me, I think there might be something in the idea.

mouse · Coadjutor Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 662

So, finally, as shortly and as clearly and i can state it, what makes something furry, is target audience.
Kids, not furry; adults, furry.
What do you call children cartoons with upright-walking animals then? You call them childrens cartoons, cus thats what they are.

Oh, and one of the many anime porns at suncoast was la blue girl, or maybe cool devices (cant remember which specificly,) and the cover had more tenticles then you could count.

thats not the definition that i prefer but ya i figured that what you were aiming at anyway

i think a cool akira type story that is in furry that may work well in cartoon film format would be something like zaibatsu tears
although it was never finished

but i meant to link to it before
a perfect easily accessible example of why i feel anthropomorphics are so good is Vaughn Bode's War Lizard in particular

http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~jdavies/bode/war/warliz.html

the mix of fantasy and reality makes the whole thing so much more powerful than it would have been otherwise

obviously the subject matter is violent and dark
using these type of characters changes your perspective

Jerry Collins was really influenced by Bode, he was a bode emulator in the early 80's did you see his artwork on this site?

all these people before led up to furry fandom

so you can see why i been flarin up over on AFF

look where it is now , what a waste
all the sexual stuff is such a small facet , thats all it shoulda ever been
just 1 more things of all the other stuff there is to offer

if done right, using 'cuter' disney style chracters in a more serious story can have a strange effect

or you could go the happy tree friends route for somethign different entirely

but sadly this stuff isnt developed in the fandom

SpineDrinker · Recusant Joined: 29 Sep 2003 Posts: 12

Allthough HappyTreeFriends seems more "lampoon" than furry. More of a mad magazine parody that twisted furry art really.
But... i wouldnt want to meet the show creaters in a dark ally... no sir-ee.

Deffinatly not normal either way.

Wayd Wolf · Coadjutor Joined: 06 Oct 2003 Posts: 456

Furry as in ANTHROPOMORPHICS? Already done. Just watch Underworld and you can see how the general public loves a good werewolf.

Furry as in smoldering cheetah temptresses? Already done. I've seen a vid of Sky Lopez in body-paint spots that is not too shabby. Heck, it's still on my HD somewhere...

Furry as in the rest of it? Not a chance. No way. Too esoteric before it was spooged into a hazmat biohazard mess of bodily fluids and unwashed fake fur, and way too tweaked as it is.

What I do see is society continuing its downward spiral of ennui, apathy, and unbelief into a time when no one gives a flying squirrel's rear what anyone is doing in furry any more. So the furvert exhibitionists will retrench and escalate until they get attention to temporarily satiate their egos to make up for their non-existant self-esteem again.

If you think some are bad now...

The big problem is backlash. Right now, increasing numbers of kids are getting arrested for selling k1dd1e pr0n they made of themselves by themselves. No wonder with kids being babysat first by TV, thence by Internet and mommy and daddy so freely paying out the nose for the best webcam to keep junior and sissy quiet so they can watch Survivor, but society never takes the blame for its mistakes.

They will eventually come swinging to find whoever taught their kids smut and the entirety of sexual expression is going to take a rectal reaming with a telephone pole starting with the most obvious cretins and working their way until even SI's swimsuit models become suspected of corrupting the morals of America's youth.

Meanwhile, mommy and daddy will continue to be shiftless buckets of irrellevance in their kids' lives, society will continue to bury itself in crap, and the problems will get worse. We live in a sea of slop and every so often society slaps those dumping the slop, but doesn't stop purchasing the slop or the ingredients to make it.

Furry is going to get whacked just like anything else with anything sexual around it. It'll survive and too bad about that, but it isn't going to become an accepted part of the mainstream unless anyone sees Doug Winger being tapped to do an exhibition at the Louvre...