Crush...Yiff...Destroy!

Gargoyle · Vociferator Joined: 04 Sep 2004 Posts: 387

gah this is so damn true -_-
why cant the elitists pack up and go to elf wood or vcl if they are soooo good instead of bugging us here on da? -_-

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/5699052/

I hope I'm not elitist.

DA · Vociferator Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 595

I'm an elitist and proud of it. There's no excuse for poorly done art in my opinion.

Quatrewolf · Coadjutor Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 72

Even though I suck at art and proably never get better(I have abanoned Deviantart several months ago.

It's their site. If the mods want to be assholes,let them. :wink:

I'm sure geoshitiescities or photobucket has places to put up their artwork. :?

Gargoyle · Vociferator Joined: 04 Sep 2004 Posts: 387

I'm an elitist and proud of it. There's no excuse for poorly done art in my opinion.

Go to the VCL, you evil elitist!

ZenZhu · TOP POSTER! Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 1510

Although, what constitutes poorly done art, and where allowances must be made for a person in the developing stages of learning to produce art, is one of the oldest raging debates with respect to VCL. Someone like NightKrawler/NachT is simply lumped into the category of poorly done. The guy produces sketches ad nauseum and there never seems to be any improvement in his abilities. He's one of the ones that just has no excuse, much like Kelly "Striker" Price.

On the other hand, you have the folks there... however few of them there are... that genuinely seek to upload a few of their pieces and get input that will help them improve. But, there is no excuse for uploading every damn picture you draw. Most of the VCL rabble, however, seem to upload every single mark they put on paper. They'll doodle on a cocktail napkin in lipstick and then take it home and scan it. Granted, I've drawn on anything I could get my hands on when my muse has struck on occasion, but the doodle is just to capture the idea for a more refined drawing later.. not to scan and share with the world.

Of course, it's just more of the typical furry phobia of establishing and enforcing standards and values. To do anything like having a VCL Gold Member section for the better artists - or a VCL Junior Member category where those neophytes wanting to share their developing skills were limited to, say, 10 or 20 images in their directory which they would rotate as they produced new works to comment on - would mean time, effort, and... worst of all... displaying some sort of judgemental value system. Oh no! Foxiekins Beginnerfoxartist might get the idea that he's not as skilled as Ursula Vernon! The horror! Surely he'd be scarred for life if held to such ideas!!!

Basically, it's not a case of elitists on VCL that need to go elsewhere.. it's a bunch of beginners that aren't ready to run with the big dogs and talentless hacks that have no business uploading in the first place, let alone cramming 308 files into their directory.

Surprise, surprise.... there is such a thing as a learning curve where you're not really ready to host your own virtual art show. If someone wants to upload a few images for people to give them pointers... great. They can keep their directory small and rotate images. But this business of uploading 15 pictures a day, every day... all of which were drawn in the margins of their class notes... and expecting to be treated like they're due to be hosted in the Louvre any day now is BS.

weird_guy_in_the_corner · Venter Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 258

Poor art sucks donkey cock. Period.

DA · Vociferator Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 595

I agree with Zenzhu.

On my dA gallery I have like a small amount of finished works and the best of my sketches in my scraps or stuff I really want help on, I rotate stuff out as I get better or move it up into the gallery if it's finished to an acceptable standard.

I'm doing a comic right now, out of the 5 pages of rough sketches done so far only one is good enough to even make my scraps, the rest will be tacked to my wall for reference as I refine the character designs and will never get near the scanner.

Yet I see artists with like 200+ pieces uploaded 99% percent of which are unadulterated crap that has to be waded through to find anything half way good they've done.

Even some of the better artists aren't immune to the curse of uploading every mark they put on paper. Furry's seem incapable of knowing the difference between prep work and actual art. The doodle they did on a napkin at tea time might be cool but it's hardly art really.

Chris Baird · Prattler Joined: 04 Aug 2003 Posts: 133

I was just thinking then... Remember when the vcl/Artists/New/index listing used to go on for about 200 pages? It's down to less than 50 now, and you can't say that's because the place has become more selective. It's no contest to say it's teenagers flooding the archive with drawings of dog-dicks giving the place a bad rap...

ZenZhu · TOP POSTER! Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 1510

It wouldn't be a bad idea to treat online archives like portfolios. The advantage of storage space online is that you can make even your stuff from 1998 available to someone who really wants it, but in your own space. With something like VCL, it wouldn't hurt for them to keep in mind that if you showcase your work to a prospective client or something, you're not going to walk in there with a folder jammed with 300 images.

Since much of furrydom stems from animation, it might be some of the misperception of production sketches as valid works is from art books showing production sketches and character pages from movies. Of course, in those cases, most only see the finished product, so the production images are interesting to see how the design of a character or something developed... like seeing the Millennium Falcon originally looking like a Dixie cup mounted on a shoebox. Often, however, the "production" images for movies like Star Wars or Shrek are finished works of art in their own right.. like landscape paintings for scenes and all.

DA · Vociferator Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 595

Perhaps but then I guess a lot of people just shove it up for the pats on the back they know they'll get. Most aren't really interested in professionalism, they'd rather be worshipped.

D.T. · Qualificator Joined: 11 Dec 2004 Posts: 18

On the one hand, there's no excusing the likes of NightKrawler, drawing reams of sketches and uploading each and every damn one.

On the other hand, some people just want to have a place to put their drawings -crappy or not- in order to share them with friends. Some of us are never going to be good artists, or even decent artists. Some of us, until the day we die, will suck at art (back in the gargoyles DVD thread someone talked about an artist being laughably bad. Which made me rather depressed, since I'd kill to be able to draw as good as that artist...).

No business uploading in the first place? Jayzus, you get a lot of noosebleeds up on that high horse? Did I miss a memo? Is the internet now for talented people only? Maybe some folks want to share their creativity with others, even if the quality of the art itself isn't good. Yeah, I know it's a pain to have to scroll through pages of not-good art trying to find the good, but that's the price you pay by letting everyone have a voice.

But again, there's no excusing the likes of NightKrawler. If you do produce hundreds of drawings, it's probably time to start showing moderation in what you upload.

DA · Vociferator Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 595

. Some of us, until the day we die, will suck at art (back in the gargoyles DVD thread someone talked about an artist being laughably bad. Which made me rather depressed, since I'd kill to be able to draw as good as that artist...).

You know the answer to that, practice, art is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration, A quality sketch takes me hours because I work at it until it is right. Too many furry artists just draw it straight out without bothering to go through building stages.

Also turning around and say you'll suck will make you suck, the human mind is a wonderful thing but very fucking gullible, say it enough times and your mind will make you suck, it'll literally put barriers in the way of you learning.

Xarai · Apocrisiary Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Posts: 44

On the other hand, some people just want to have a place to put their drawings -crappy or not- in order to share them with friends. Some of us are never going to be good artists, or even decent artists. Some of us, until the day we die, will suck at art (back in the gargoyles DVD thread someone talked about an artist being laughably bad. Which made me rather depressed, since I'd kill to be able to draw as good as that artist...).

I think that that's the main problem with online art archives. If you have no or very few quality controls, you're going to be flooded with a lot of crap from people who think they're Rembrandt after a week of drawing practice and scan the margins of every single high school math assignment they've ever done. But if you exercise QC a la Yerf, Epilogue, et al, then you end up turning away all the "casual" and beginner artists. You're right in saying that beginner artists, as long as they aren't obnoxious, should have a place to show off to friends or (better yet) ask for critiques.

VCL is the former approach, while Yerf is the latter approach, and both have problems: VCL is flooded with 30-second doodles, while Yerf has been nonstop furry drama from the start (and the art, while overall good, doesn't have much variety). I don't know if there can ever be a good solution, although "tell Urban Hermit, Pink Fairy Lotus, and NightKrawler to stop fucking posting so much" sounds like a good start to me.

Rankin · TOP POSTER! Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 1514

You know the answer to that, practice, art is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration, A quality sketch takes me hours because I work at it until it is right. Too many furry artists just draw it straight out without bothering to go through building stages.

Ya know, you've been artfagging up theads like this for ages now, It's becoming a bit boring. Please find something new, or offer something beyond basic "I'm better, but you don't get an explaination why" shit - even SLatalia has given up some of his crapfests - and probably slept with Donotsue.

...I put the last part there to make SkunkFucker jealous. :)

D.T. · Qualificator Joined: 11 Dec 2004 Posts: 18

You know the answer to that, practice, art is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration, A quality sketch takes me hours because I work at it until it is right. Too many furry artists just draw it straight out without bothering to go through building stages.

And some of us have worked for hours to produce something that looks like shit. Say "practice makes perfect" or "you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps" all you want. Some people just don't have the talent for some things. Maybe you can improve over where you started, but, unfortunately, there's no guarantee that you'll ever be "good" at something you want to be good at. That's life. You recognize your weaknesses, address them as much as you can, try as hard as you can, and move on.

Skunkfuckers Inc. · Needs to get out more Joined: 20 Jan 2004 Posts: 980

You know the answer to that, practice, art is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration, A quality sketch takes me hours because I work at it until it is right. Too many furry artists just draw it straight out without bothering to go through building stages.

Ya know, you've been artfagging up theads like this for ages now, It's becoming a bit boring. Please find something new, or offer something beyond basic "I'm better, but you don't get an explaination why" shit - even SLatalia has given up some of his crapfests - and probably slept with Donotsue.

...I put the last part there to make SkunkFucker jealous. :)

You son of a bitch(!) :cry:

ZenZhu · TOP POSTER! Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 1510

No business uploading in the first place? Jayzus, you get a lot of noosebleeds up on that high horse? Did I miss a memo?

Yes... yes you did. Here's a copy of it for your records:

From: The desk of Ms. Bloyu
To: All associates and employees of CYD, Inc.

Re: Do not take Mr. Zen Zhu's comments at face value

Dear Staff,

Please be informed that no employees or associates of CYD, Inc. are to take Mr. Zen Zhu's comments at face value. Those that are acquainted with him may be familiar with his tendency to overstate things for the sake of simplicity or entertainment purposes. His comments are to be in no way construed as an accurate reflection of his personal sentiments. Those that are not familiar with his posting style are directed to stop for a moment to consider if anyone could actually take some of his more outlandish or blunt statments seriously. Simple consideration will typically indicate that his stronger assertions are not to be taken seriously.

Any associates or employees that may accidentally become ruffled by Mr. Zhu's comments should see the staff nurse for a chill pill. In more extreme cases, the company's medical policy does cover corn-cob extraction services.

Thank you,
Ivana Bloyu

ISB/er

SLaitila · Vociferator Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 408

Ya know, you've been artfagging up theads like this for ages now, It's becoming a bit boring. Please find something new, or offer something beyond basic "I'm better, but you don't get an explaination why" shit - even SLatalia has given up some of his crapfests - and probably slept with Donotsue.

Crapfests? Where? Do they have beer? I'm in!

Oh! Shit I recall them crapfests, those I USED TO BE FURRY BUT BECAUSE OF ROCK MUSIC I'M ALL BETTER NOW A-OK. I'M ALSO NOT REPUBLICAN. Yeah, I just figured it's better not to be venting, preachy and repetitive on forums. It's also not sexy. I'd like to be sexier but the mustash won't grow!!!111

Kadius · Vociferator Joined: 10 Feb 2004 Posts: 637

You know the answer to that, practice, art is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration, A quality sketch takes me hours because I work at it until it is right. Too many furry artists just draw it straight out without bothering to go through building stages.

Ya know, you've been artfagging up theads like this for ages now, It's becoming a bit boring. Please find something new, or offer something beyond basic "I'm better, but you don't get an explaination why"

Doesn't change the fact that it's true. No matter how creative you are, you still have to put the effort into something for it to look good. (=

Rankin · TOP POSTER! Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 1514

Doesn't change the fact that it's true. No matter how creative you are, you still have to put the effort into something for it to look good. (=

Obviously. I merely snipped to this one paragraph for brevity. If I felt liek being a prick, I would have quoted other threads which centered around the 'I am better, I do this, I do.. .blabbityblah' train of thought. I didn't feel it was warranted. I just wanted to say 'stop it, please'.

Ebonyleopard · Venter Joined: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 218

On the one hand, there's no excusing the likes of NightKrawler, drawing reams of sketches and uploading each and every damn one.

On the other hand, some people just want to have a place to put their drawings -crappy or not- in order to share them with friends. Some of us are never going to be good artists, or even decent artists. Some of us, until the day we die, will suck at art (back in the gargoyles DVD thread someone talked about an artist being laughably bad. Which made me rather depressed, since I'd kill to be able to draw as good as that artist...).

No business uploading in the first place? Jayzus, you get a lot of noosebleeds up on that high horse? Did I miss a memo? Is the internet now for talented people only? Maybe some folks want to share their creativity with others, even if the quality of the art itself isn't good. Yeah, I know it's a pain to have to scroll through pages of not-good art trying to find the good, but that's the price you pay by letting everyone have a voice.

But again, there's no excusing the likes of NightKrawler. If you do produce hundreds of drawings, it's probably time to start showing moderation in what you upload.

Weird thing is. NightKrawler actually has improved (Just take a look at what he started out with posting).

I envy him in one regard. I WISH I had the amount of TIME he seems to have on his hands to draw. Man what I wouldn't give to be able to actually sit done and produce the volume of drawings he does myself.

Time disappears when you have other actual work to do. Man, I got more done in college with a full schedule of classes and homework.

D.T. · Qualificator Joined: 11 Dec 2004 Posts: 18

Unfortunately there's no good way to respond when someone talks smack, then dodges responsibility by saying you shouldn't take what they say seriously.

Instead, Joust http://www.shockwave.com/sw/content/joust . Everyone remembers Joust, right? Yeah, Joust was fun.

Or, if that's not your idea of a good time, Ralph Wiggum with a gun. Ithankyew.

">

mouse · Needs to get out more Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 1030

Instead, Joust http://www.shockwave.com/sw/content/joust . Everyone remembers Joust, right? Yeah, Joust was fun.

Joust was not the first, but one of the first video games I ever played.

Or, if that's not your idea of a good time, Ralph Wiggum with a gun. Ithankyew.

Right there is a situation that would get real funny, real fast. :)

ZenZhu · TOP POSTER! Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 1510

I'm startin' to think Wayd was dead-on when he predicted the forthcoming implosion of CYD.

DA · Vociferator Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 595

You know the answer to that, practice, art is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration, A quality sketch takes me hours because I work at it until it is right. Too many furry artists just draw it straight out without bothering to go through building stages.

Ya know, you've been artfagging up theads like this for ages now, It's becoming a bit boring. Please find something new, or offer something beyond basic "I'm better, but you don't get an explaination why" shit - even SLatalia has given up some of his crapfests - and probably slept with Donotsue.

I did, the second bit you didn't quote is one of the biggest fences a wannabe artist needs to get over. There was a guy in my block of flats way older than me, never picked up a pencil before, yet the first time he did so he produced something that I swore was photographic quality and made me go green around the gills.

He did this because A: Nobody told him it wasn't possible and B: He worked hard.

You'll be surprised at how well some people can draw if the concept that they can't never enters their head. Most beginners actually suck because they expect to suck, Yes I suffered from this myself so I'm not going to say it's an easy thing to push out but 'I can't draw' doesn't help anyone. Especially if your mind decides to listen to what you're saying and make it true.

To be frank most artists aren't that talented, anybody can pick up a pencil and learn to draft competently (I'm proof of that, I've got next to no talent, any perceived talent I have is hard work and practice), most of the ones who truely do suck generally do so because they either don't believe they can do it or because they don't want to, ie some just draw in order to draw smut but don't want to do it better so long as it's something they can wank to or because they already think they're god's gift to the artworld and stop trying.(please note: though I piss around and ape that attitude, I am not god's gift to the artworld and I can and will chew my own self-confidence to bits, I just get pissy when I'm dealing with someone who can't admit that I actually have some skill and knowledge, so there, my awful truth is out, I'm not as stuck up as I sometimes come off as).

Yeah, there's the odd person who just seemingly has to glance at a pencil to make gorgeous art but for everyone else sheer effort will produce a fairly competent artist and I get a little tired of hearing 'I can't draw' because if you have eyes that can see, half a brain and some way to hold a pencil and make marks on a page, you can draw.

There, that's the secret of reasonable quality art, everything else is just time and effort once you get over 'I can't draw'. Basically art is just like anything, you gotta want to get good, if you don't want it then it generally doesn't happen.

Anyway I'd better shut up, I'm rambling now.

Computolio · Vociferator Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 631

Boy does this thread ever suck.