But in Gwen's case, there was no deception. Gwen was just being herself. In a world in which we are all told we have to be more feminine or more masculine -- Gwen was wise enough to know herself and brave enough to be herself. That is beautiful. She should be our role model.

Gwen was a truely brave and free person living out of the closet and not afraid to be who SHE really was. She did what was natural for her and who she was and she should be praised for it for most aren't that courageous, she was truly strong and honest with herself

Instead, transgender people are seen as deceivers. The word "deception" comes up often in our lives.

I will share one of my experiences with deception. I am a female-to-male transgender person. One day, I flirted with someone I assumed to be a gay man, got his number and later went over to his place. He opened the door, and we kissed. A couple of minutes later, I came out to him as transgender. I did it casually. I do not make a big deal out of it, because to me it is not a big deal.

It was a big deal to him. He immediately stopped being interested and told me that I had deceived him. He said: "I thought you were just a cute gay guy." He said that I should have told him that I am transgender and what my genitalia look like before he invited me to his place.

I was not hurt, aside from my feelings. I was lucky.

What I did not say to him then, but wished I had:

"You deceived me. All this time I thought you were just a cute transgender guy. You really should have told me you are a nontransgender person. I cannot believe that you did not tell what your genitalia look like. I cannot go through with this. I would have never come over to your place had I known.

Their argument essentially is that Gwen deserved to be killed because she deceived, and thus stole the heterosexuality of the men she had sex with.

Their argument essentially is that Gwen deserved to be killed because she deceived, and thus stole the heterosexuality of the men she had sex with.

There's a whole lotta stupid going on.

I wont say I have many friends that are trannies, but those that I do have as friends I know are trannies. This "thing" (for lack of a better word) with the murder of Gwen Araujo by two men she tricked, and I mean that whole heartedly, into having sex with her is just fucked up. And I do mean tricked. She kept information from them she knew was valuable to them, at least to me it would be valuable info. Do I think she deserved to be murdered? Hell no. Do I think she probably deserved at least a punch in the mouth? Yes.

I don't know all the facts (was she pre-op or post-op?), so I can't really say for sure what happened. If she was pre-op, I'd like to know how those two idiots didn't notice to meat and two veg. If she was post-op, why the hell did she tell them anyway? If you are going to live your life as a woman, post-operation, don't mention the operation. Sooner or later it'll be valuable info to someone, but I don't think she was looking for anything more then to get double teamed by two guys, and either way she shouldn't have told them she was a trannie over eggs and toast.

That's just how I feel about it.

Their argument essentially is that Gwen deserved to be killed because she deceived, and thus stole the heterosexuality of the men she had sex with.

There reputation was instantly ruined and i'm sure that had a lot to do with why they felt they had to retaliate. If they did nothing, they would be a laughing stock.

Yeah, I'm a pretty godamn straight female and although I wouldn't be thrilled if I was tricked into screwing a girl, I wouldn't be on the war path either. Is this some sort of male "if we don't freak the fuck out our balls will retract into our body" reaction? Even if so, it's no excuse.

if I was tricked into screwing a girl

Yeah, I'm a pretty godamn straight female and although I wouldn't be thrilled if I was tricked into screwing a girl, I wouldn't be on the war path either. Is this some sort of male "if we don't freak the fuck out our balls will retract into our body" reaction? Even if so, it's no excuse.

Sure beats being a convicted murderer, though.

What this Gwen person did was truly idiotic, but I still don't understand why the proper response for some of you, should you have been put in the same situation, would be to "beat the living shit" out of the offender. I don't want to sound like a misandrist, but I really have to wonder about the fragility of the male ego when it so easily leads to violent overreaction.

Sure beats being a convicted murderer, though.

What this Gwen person did was truly idiotic, but I still don't understand why the proper response for some of you, should you have been put in the same situation, would be to "beat the living shit" out of the offender. I don't want to sound like a misandrist, but I really have to wonder about the fragility of the male ego when it so easily leads to violent overreaction.

To use people's arguements against them, it's just who we are. Gwen was just a girl in a guy's body. That's how she felt and wanted to change to be a girl in a girl's body.

I didn't say it was a "proper" response. It is the response i personally would probably have if that happened to me. Some things are sacred and i personally would be furious. 5thehardway, this is not something like getting mean mugged at a bar or having someone talk shit to you randomly. There are only a few things i can even think of that would drive me to hit someone and this is defenitely one of them. I would be traumatized. And yes, ego does have something to do with it.

Perhaps I'm missing something obvious but...

Isn't it also the fault of those two guys for having drunken, anonymous sex in the first place? I mean, you can't fuck a dude and not realize he's a dude unless you are not in full control of all your faculties. Seems to me that such are the hazards of having no discretion in where you put your dick. I certainly don't approve of lying about your sex, but those two pretty much lost all rights to retribution for being dumbasses in the first place.

I didn't say it was a "proper" response. It is the response i personally would probably have if that happened to me. Some things are sacred and i personally would be furious. 5thehardway, this is not something like getting mean mugged at a bar or having someone talk shit to you randomly. There are only a few things i can even think of that would drive me to hit someone and this is defenitely one of them. I would be traumatized. And yes, ego does have something to do with it.

The only comparison I can think of from "the other side of the fence" would be a rape victim attacking her (or his, come to think of it) rapist. I can sympathize with the rape victim who might want to take a crowbar to the attacker's skull, but I still believe that vigilanteism is a sign of the failure of society. Additionally, rape is a non-consensual act, as opposed to a consensual act that went bad.

I guess I'm just uncomfortable with the fact that the male ego demands a kind of vigilante justice when it's been bruised. I hate that hippy-dippy brand of extreme feminism that claims men are the source of all the world's problems and if women ran the world there would be no war blah blah blah, but when an essential component of manhood seems to be the right to cave in someone's skull when they've wronged you, it makes me wonder.

I hate that hippy-dippy brand of extreme feminism that claims men are the source of all the world's problems and if women ran the world there would be no war blah blah blah...

I guess I'm just uncomfortable with the fact that the male ego demands a kind of vigilante justice when it's been bruised. I hate that hippy-dippy brand of extreme feminism that claims men are the source of all the world's problems and if women ran the world there would be no war blah blah blah, but when an essential component of manhood seems to be the right to cave in someone's skull when they've wronged you, it makes me wonder.

This thread is worse than the discussions (read: mental dickwaving contests) that went on in my sociology class.

I can sympthize with both sides.

On one hand male who feels female doesn't want gay men because he considers himself female and therefor would feel straight men are the only appropriate partners because gay men would make him a gay man rather than a straight woman. Said person, rather than finding guys who don't mind their "birth defect," hides the truth in an act of unacceptable irresponsibility.

On the other hand two drunk guys find a some chick at a party and they get to double team her, which they think is hot. One, from my understanding, gets to put it in "her" ass, and thinks this is hot. they both have a great time. Later they found up that the hot sex they just had was with a dude instead of a chick. They are upset for their reputation and because they enjoyed themselves. Failing to realize that they only enjoyed it because they thought is was a chick and that makes them in no way gay (as far as intentions and self perception go) beat said individual with frying pan rather than the less bad but still unacceptable fists.

Reguardless of my limited sympathies for both sides I feel compelled to state:
Lying about one's sex = fucked up.
Murder due to bruised ego = also and possibly more fucked up.

Slightly off topic, but whoever invented the shi/hir pornouns needs to die painfully. Those are fucking annoying.

Slightly off topic, but whoever invented the shi/hir pornouns needs to die painfully. Those are fucking annoying.

Slightly off topic, but whoever invented the shi/hir pornouns needs to die painfully. Those are fucking annoying.

Slightly off topic, but whoever invented the shi/hir pornouns needs to die painfully. Those are fucking annoying.

Slightly off topic, but whoever invented the shi/hir pornouns needs to die painfully. Those are fucking annoying.

Slightly off topic, but whoever invented the shi/hir pornouns needs to die painfully. Those are fucking annoying.

Slightly off topic, but whoever invented the shi/hir pornouns needs to die painfully. Those are fucking annoying.

Slightly off topic, but whoever invented the shi/hir pornouns needs to die painfully. Those are fucking annoying.

Well, to be fair, I know a real live hemaphrodite and the shi/hir pronouns are really what works best for them.

Uhhh, if you mean talking to someone face to face, how are these words different? I alwys figured "shi" is pronounced "she", and "hir" is pronounced "her"... and no matter how it would get brought up , the context in which it would be used wouldnt really reveal that its a different word..

In real life, it becomes 'ze' and 'hir' (pronounced like here, I believe). A 'girl' my friend dated (and who I still see regularly) is 'genderqueer', which is the new cool way to be different now that bi/gay is so acceptable, it seems. "I don't think gender is important, so I'm neither-- I'm genderqueer."

In real life, it becomes 'ze' and 'hir' (pronounced like here, I believe). A 'girl' my friend dated (and who I still see regularly) is 'genderqueer', which is the new cool way to be different now that bi/gay is so acceptable, it seems. "I don't think gender is important, so I'm neither-- I'm genderqueer."

While I'm pretty open minded, but I've lost some friends by calling this bullshit for what it is.

In real life, it becomes 'ze' and 'hir' (pronounced like here, I believe). A 'girl' my friend dated (and who I still see regularly) is 'genderqueer', which is the new cool way to be different now that bi/gay is so acceptable, it seems. "I don't think gender is important, so I'm neither-- I'm genderqueer."

While I'm pretty open minded, but I've lost some friends by calling this bullshit for what it is.

Who'd have thought we'd ever see the day when being bisexual was not only trendy, but that it subsequently became passe.

Too bad eunuchs aren't trendy. That would get a whole lot of stupid out of the gene pool in a hurry.

I remember reading another article in the chronicle about this group kids from the LGBT community were going to school to educate people that gay and strait don't even come close to defining all the different types of "Non strait" there is, they had over 300 differenty terms. That's where i learned about "metro sexuals", it was that broad that it even covered people that weren't gay at all.

I always thought Metrosexual meant straight men who dress nicely and have "feelings" but aren't effeminate or wussy.

I remember reading another article in the chronicle about this group kids from the LGBT community were going to school to educate people that gay and strait don't even come close to defining all the different types of "Non strait" there is, they had over 300 differenty terms. That's where i learned about "metro sexuals", it was that broad that it even covered people that weren't gay at all.

I'm saying this not as a gay basher, but as one of them...

"Metrosexual" is a bastardized term that has nothing to do with sexuality. It's a straight man who acts efeminine. Sometimes they are still closet fags, but most of the time they both enjoy and act like a pussy. The term is idiotic since it has nothing to do with sexuality. They're straight and femmy. So say 'straight and femmy', it still has one less syllable than 'metrosexual', and requires no further explanation.

There are, at very most, 4 terms to describe just about everyone who isn't some herm from surgery or whatever.

'Heterosexual', 'homosexual', 'bisexual', and 'desperate'. If you start using gay-but things, no it's gay. Don't listen to the radical LBGT groups who want to confuse the fuck outta everyone with terms to make them feel intellectual or cultured. It's just them being dicks.

I always thought Metrosexual meant straight men who dress nicely and have "feelings" but aren't effeminate or wussy.

Metrosexual

One who is sexually excited by underground railways. The dominant partner in a metrosexual relationship is called the 'motorman' and the submissive one the 'passenger'. Other metrosexual slang terms include 'caboose', 'coupler', 'flange', and 'escalator'.

I always thought Metrosexual meant straight men who dress nicely and have "feelings" but aren't effeminate or wussy.

Metrosexual

One who is sexually excited by underground railways. The dominant partner in a metrosexual relationship is called the 'motorman' and the submissive one the 'passenger'. Other metrosexual slang terms include 'caboose', 'coupler', 'flange', and 'escalator'.

Firstly not telling a guy you're a dude is not cool.

Number two killing someone is really not cool.