Crush...Yiff...Destroy!

raygirl · Prattler Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 198

I post this on EVERY forum i go to, and some of the replies I get are very interesting...so I think I should get the opinions of the 'closet furries' at CYD

I used to be a moderator on Raymanzone forums, the official Rayman fan forum created after the releace of Rayman 3. But this isn't important

While I was mod there a guy joined who claimed to a satanist (with the whole upside down pentigram as his icon etc), and then he claimed to be an athiest as well.

I tried to argue this with him, but then he got banned for being an ass to veteran members and never returned.

So here is my question

Is it possible to be a satanist (i.e. a person who follows the path of satan nd/or what satan stands for) and an athiest (someone who doesn't believe in any sort of god)?

I mean...surely if you don't believe in God, why should you believe in satan, his spiritual opposite? And if you endulge in the 7 deadly sins (as a lot of satanists do) as part of your relegious beliefs but don't actually worship the devil can you still be called a satanist? If not, what would you be and can you be an athiest as well?

This is a religous topic, but so far I've taken it to several boards and had no fights or idiocy from people taking part in the discussion. Keep it clean people, this not a topic for bollocking other's relegious beliefs, and it's not a soapbox for preaching your beliefs (unless they relate to the discussion) :)

stinkweedskunk · Prattler Joined: 14 Nov 2005 Posts: 155

I avoid it all entirely. Pagan, Atheist, whatever you want to call me, religion just makes my head hurt and is too frustrating. I believe in good old morals, common sense, and what goes around comes around. I don't need an organized religion for that.

raygirl · Prattler Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 198

I avoid it all entirely. Pagan, Atheist, whatever you want to call me, religion just makes my head hurt and is too frustrating. I believe in good old morals, common sense, and what goes around comes around. I don't need an organized religion for that.

I do agree. I'm C of E by birth but my beliefs come down to 'if it makes you happy and doesn't hurt others then go ahead and do it'

This is just an interesting argument I believe ;)

Beauty of Nature · Venter Joined: 29 May 2005 Posts: 246

Maybe if he has a split personality and one part of him is Atheist and the other Satanist. It is impossible to be both at the same time.That was probably an emo kid that had no faint idea what the two stand for.
'Atheist satanist' is oxymoronic crap like 'millitant pacifist' , 'kosher pork, 'vegan whaler','furry logic' or 'islamic fashist'.

There is no doubt that the person you encountered is deciple to the church of moron.

raygirl · Prattler Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 198

Oh certainly, I don't debate that :)

But it did bring up a lot of points...like until I started asking the queation I didn't know that you could be a satanist and not worship satan.

Christians....shouldn't they worship Chris?

wtf · Prattler Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 199

'Atheist satanist' is oxymoronic crap like 'millitant pacifist' , 'kosher pork, 'vegan whaler','furry logic' or 'islamic fashist'.

I don't know. People at the Internet told me there are trainloads of vicious, hateful, jealous, bloodthirsty Arab Muslim Nazi civilians who should be shot or possibly gassed.

Anyway,

Yezidis

Small Middle Eastern religion with ancient origins. They worship Lucifer in the form of a peacock. Thus they have often been called 'Satanic' or 'devil-worshippers'. But they do not consider Lucifer to be rebellious or evil, unlike Western followers of Satanism; thus the term is inaccurate.

Historically, the monotheistic Yezidis are a religious minority of the Kurds. Purportedly, they have existed since 2,000 B.C.. Yezidi belief may have been been tied to Mithraism. Prior to the rise of Islam, it may have been the original religion of the Kurds.

Sheik-Adi Ibin Mustafa in about 1162 AD radically changed the Yezidi religion, so that some people believe the previous form of belief was in fact, a different religion from what is currently called Yezidi belief.

It has been argued that there is a similarity to the Process Church, in that they were often viewed as Satanic on the grounds that they worshipped both Christ and Satan; It is unclear whether they believe as the Process Church does, that Satan had turned from his evil ways and become reconciled to Christ, and that both were coming at the end of the world to judge humanity, Christ to judge and Satan to execute judgment.

I told you the Kurds are pretty hardcore.

raygirl · Prattler Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 198

that sounds a little like the egyptians worshipping Anubis

I mean on the basis of satan being 'the god of the dead' or 'the power of the afterlife' like Hades then that a whole other type of satanism I've not heard of before.

But it sounds like it's a got a bit of the good old christmas faith in it that says 'you are not worshiping god as he is portrayed in our good book, therefore your beliefs are HEATHEN AND WRONG'...yay for ancient christian prejudices

But Yezidis can't claim to be athiests because they do worship a god

wtf · Prattler Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 199

I thought by "believing in god" you meant, you know, the God god. G-d God god.

In Mosul, IWPR journalists were unable to find anyone who had heard of the Islamist propaganda authorising the killing of Yazidis, that Pir Jaafar Atu claimed existed. But several people did claim that members of the religion were impure.

"A Muslim visiting Yazidis should slaughter a sheep by himself to acknowledge their hospitality, but they shouldn't eat it, and neither should he eat their food," said Abdullah Mohammed, a Shia Turcoman taxi driver.

"Why should the Yazidis be given rights?" asked one cigarette vendor, eyeing the demonstration outside the Governing Council in Baghdad. "They don't believe in God."

GoManVanGogh · Vociferator Joined: 18 Nov 2003 Posts: 678

Well Satanism (as opposed to Demon Worship) doesn't acknowledge the existence of any otherworldly entities, deity or otherwise. It's really more of a secular humanist movement obsessed with materialism.

They just got the name "Satanist" because that's what Christians referred to them as when their movement founded, and it just sort of stuck.

Jerry Collins · Vociferator Joined: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 570

Me, I put my trust in: "THE MIGHTY FLYING SPAGETTI MONSTER"!!!!Praise his/her's noodly appendage!RAMEN!!!

raygirl · Prattler Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 198

They just got the name "Satanist" because that's what Christians referred to them as when their movement founded, and it just sort of stuck.

oooh, now that makes a lot of sence

But this is the 2000's, surely they can update for the modern world?

I heard someone mention 'Selfists'

Jerry Collins · Vociferator Joined: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 570

ever talk to one of those hard core Ayn Rand fans?Talk about SATANIC!OY! :roll:

RailFoxen · Vociferator Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 639

I was under the impression that Satanism (as organized through the CoS) was an atheist religion. But there are a good dozen or more sects of Satanism. Read about it if you're curious. LaVeyan Satanism generally denies the existance of any divine forces - including the Christian Satan.

But belief in that Satan with the horns and the pitchfork rather precludes atheism.

Banrai · Vociferator Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 575

Actually:

Called “The Black Pope” by many of his followers, Anton LaVey began the road to High Priesthood of
the Church of Satan when he was only 16 years old and an organ player in a carnival:

“On Saturday night I would see men lusting after half-naked girls dancing at the carnival, and on Sunday morning when I was playing the organ for tent-show evangelists at the other end of the carnival lot, I would see these same men sitting in the pews with their wives and children, asking God to forgive them and purge them of carnal desires. And the next Saturday night they’d be back at the carnival or some other place of indulgence.

“I knew then that the Christian Church thrives on hypocrisy, and that man’s carnal nature will out!”

From that time early in his life his path was clear. Finally, on the last night of April, 1968 -Walpurgisnacht, the most important festival of the believers in witchcraft-LaVey shaved his head in the tradition of ancient executioners and announced the formation of The Church Of Satan. He had seen the need for a church that would recapture man’s bocly and his carnal desires as objects of celebration “Since worship of fleshly things produces pleasure,” he said, “there would then be a temple of glorious indulgence"

Straight from the Satanic Bible. Why do they even bother calling themselves 'Satanists' if they don't worship satan? Why not... 'Carnalists' for the worship of carnal desires or what the fuck ever.

Beauty of Nature · Venter Joined: 29 May 2005 Posts: 246

Yeah.
Satanism is the worshipping of Satan as a deity/devine force/whatever.
Hence the Satan in Satan-ism.

Good umbrella term for non satanic things like LeVayism may be Occultism.

That they are deemed Satanists may come from orthodox Christian views.
When they are against the christian church they are technically on one side with satan.
Leading to the use of Satanism for anything non Christian by some.

MagKnightX · Vociferator Joined: 04 Dec 2003 Posts: 420

Satan is a form of deity. Therefore, Satanism is a deist belief, and is not atheism.

raygirl · Prattler Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 198

so if we're being purist, it is impossible to be an athiest and a Satanist (i.e. a person who worships satan or follows what he stands for)

I agree with Banrai...ok so maybe in the past anything that wasn't christian could have been considered a product of satan, but it would be like lumping every other religion (including paganism and wicca along with the 4 other main relegions) together and saying they're all satanists

wtf · Prattler Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 199

This thread is sponsored by: Satan, satan, Shaitan, Malak Ta’us, and Set.

In Yazidi belief, Malak Ta'us is also the devil (Shaitan), the ruler of this world, and they seek to appease him as they fear his power. They do not actually worship him, but seek to honour and placate him, believing that the Supreme Being has delegated to him dominion over the world. They will never pronounce his Arabic name "Shaitan" or use any word beginning with "SH". He is seen as a capricious Lord who determines man's fate as he wills and in whom the principles of good and of evil are combined. It is believed that he appeared in different form in various periods of history, the final incarnation being in Sheikh 'Adi ben Musafir (d. 1162).

They appearently think the god God is somewhere else and he simply doesn't care ever since the Earth's creation. Their holy book is called Black Book, Malak's other symbol is black serpent (they like black a lot, you see), and they're forbidden to wear dark blue for some reason.

Also here's the Yezidi prince of North Iraq with a Chaldean bishops, celebrating new year together:

and it's the Christians wearing black here ;) Overally, I don't think it's what Lovecraft thought when writing The Horror at Red Hook.

The evil-Satan Satanists of the West (skip the no-satan "Satanists", which sounds totally stupid and probably is even more so) as I know about them are just either madmen, new-age cultist charlatans, poser musicians, or I-hate-my-parents teenagers. Some genuinely scary (like a murderers), and the rest just pathetic. Or money-making.

Now you might post about some "furry Satanists" so we can all laugh at them :)

nopedestrian · Prattler Joined: 10 Sep 2005 Posts: 142

Maybe if he has a split personality and one part of him is Atheist and the other Satanist.

A lot of Satanists just see Satan as the dark, pleasure-seeking side of human nature instead of as an actual diety. As I understand it, many of them don't believe in an afterlife, either.

edit: No, I don't see the point either.

SquareMoogle · Vociferator Joined: 16 Dec 2004 Posts: 361

RaptorJesus went extinct for your sins. :x

Moonbeam · Qualificator Joined: 12 Dec 2005 Posts: 30

Part of the reason LaVey called it Satanism was to shock people. He was a carnie before he founded his own religion and was big into theatrics. It also has more to do with Satan being the Adversary and rejection of Christianity rather than actual worship of Satan, blah blah blah. So yes, you can totally be an atheist and a Satanist at the same time, although it's my personal experience with CoS folks that they mostly worship themselves.

The "updated" version is the Temple of Set (Michael Aquino's crowd) where they are into Set who was Osiris's opposite number and generally considered the bad guy in that mythology. They're not atheists, generally speaking. Aquino had some kind of falling out with LaVey and went and founded his own deal.

There are also folks who worship "Satan" as Lucifer the Lightbringer and reject his characterization as God's evil adversary, but they don't really call themselves Satanists. Also, Golden Dawn folks and other Crowley types get lumped in with Satanists a lot, but they're not.

And yes, fundie Christians lump everything that's not Christianity under Satanism and there's not much anyone can do about it. :roll:

raygirl · Prattler Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 198

Satan...in the christian scheme of things, was God's opposite, all the evil of the world incarnate. Without God there would be no satan, so by accepting his name and what he stand for (as the opposite of the christian faith) you must first have a level of belief in God...and therefore you can't be an athiest

Moonbeam · Qualificator Joined: 12 Dec 2005 Posts: 30

Satan...in the christian scheme of things, was God's opposite, all the evil of the world incarnate. Without God there would be no satan, so by accepting his name and what he stand for (as the opposite of the christian faith) you must first have a level of belief in God...and therefore you can't be an athiest

You can if you view God and Satan as metaphors and Christianity as mythology.

raygirl · Prattler Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 198

I'm not sure, you'd still have to make the thought process about God and Satan being the two sides of a coin...and therefore you'd have to contemplate god's existence

But athiests don't believe in any kind of deity or powerful spirit as the essence of right and wrong

At least...I think not...I'm not an athiest so I don't really know :shock:

Moonbeam · Qualificator Joined: 12 Dec 2005 Posts: 30

According to pre-Adamic theory, God and Satan are not opposites; they are enemies, which is different.

In any case, contemplating the existence of a thing is not the same as believing in it, and there is a big difference between attaching a name to a principle and believing that principle to be a deity.

raygirl · Prattler Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 198

Wow, you know a lot about this :)

But surely satan does stand for everything that isn't god? Therefore wouldn't that make him an opposite?

My main problem is with people who call themselves satanist but who don't worship satan...I mean if you follow the 7 deadly sins and live only to pleasure yourself (which a lot of satanists go by) but don't actually worship satan himself, can you really call yourself a satanist? What about a selfist instead?

Moonbeam · Qualificator Joined: 12 Dec 2005 Posts: 30

I have many skills. :lol:

Satan (according to pre-Adamic theory) was originally Lucifer, God's highest and most loved angel, who aspired to take God's place and rule Heaven. Therefore he was cast down into Hell (some say he said it was better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven and went voluntarily) and took something like half the angels with him. All of this happened before the creation of the world.

So he is not everything that is not God and strictly speaking not really evil incarnate either - that personification came up in the middle ages or thereabouts when they pasted on the horns and tail and went in for scare-tactics evangelism.

The suffix -ist does not necessarily denote worship anyway. After all, objectivists don't worship objectivity, it's just a philosophy they follow; and classicists don't worship the classics, they just study them.

raygirl · Prattler Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 198

LOL, Pasafists would worship Pasaf XD

I think in order to answer the question I stared with (just so we don't go too deep into theology, as interesting as it is) we have to define what kind of satanist we're talking about.

Are we talking about the little wannabe goth kids who think it's cool to wear a huge bling pentagram and smash up churches...or the ancient symbolism of anything that wasn't considered holy and good christian worship was therefore the work of the devil

Or something else?

Moonbeam · Qualificator Joined: 12 Dec 2005 Posts: 30

LOL, Pasafists would worship Pasaf XD

I think in order to answer the question I stared with (just so we don't go too deep into theology, as interesting as it is) we have to define what kind of satanist we're talking about.

Are we talking about the little wannabe goth kids who think it's cool to wear a huge bling pentagram and smash up churches...or the ancient symbolism of anything that wasn't considered holy and good christian worship was therefore the work of the devil

Or something else?

Oh, well, if you ask me, obnoxious little mallgoths who call themselves Satanists are just... obnoxious little mallgoths. And pentagrams/pentacles the size of hubcaps are stupid-looking. They remind me of the idiots I went to high school with who used to steal the hood ornaments off Mercedes-Benzes and wear them around their necks, "because they look like peace signs, dude."

If you say the word Satanist to me personally, I automatically think of a member of the Church of Satan.

raygirl · Prattler Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 198

I don't really think anything when i hear the word satanist. It's just another relegion and they don't offend me.

I do however think of this guy I saw on TV once. He was part of a group of disruptive youths who were sent to this special miliary school to train them out of their bad behaviour. This guy was a self confessed satanist, and part of the routine in the compound was Sunday Morning prayer in the barracks chapel

This guy was so truamatised by the idea of going into a church and having to pray to a god he didn't believe in he broke down in front of his commanding officer when he was ordered to go in.

I can't decide if I felt sorry for him or annoyed that he was acting like such a wuss.

m_estrugo · Vociferator Joined: 13 Nov 2003 Posts: 547

I think religions were developed on early cultures as an attempt to explain the world, and since there was little or no scientific knowledge, the answers were somehow related with magical beings and deities and whatnot that acted on our universe on a very direct way, like, for instance, in myths about the creation of the world.

We humans have way too much imagination and are always looking for an explanation for everything, so when our ancestors tried to explain, say, what are lightings and thunders, then we said there was a big folk up there really upset at us or somesuch. And people believed it because they didn't have any other explanation for those phenomena.

As time passed by, early 'clerics' used religion to teach morals: calamities and disgraces were not blamed on deities but in people's bad behaviors that unleashed the deity's anger. According with those thoughts, Noah's flood wasn't 'just because', it was caused because men got corrupted and Jehovah decided to get rid of them and start all over. And so on. You can find 'moral' messages hidden like this in all religious texts.

Religions also were widely used to coat leaders with a gown of legitimacy. In Ancient Egypt, Pharaohs were living deities themselves, direct sons of the Sun. In the Incan empire, the Incas's lineage linked them with legendary heroes that did awesome things, etc, etc. And even absolutist kings got the surname 'Dei Gratia' in all their coins, as a clear indication that if they were kings they wrere there because nobody else but God wanted them there. And that's a really good sponsor, if you ask me.

Religions evolved thru history to become more complex, intrincated and abstract, especially since science started to develop and explain natural phenomena and was able to reproduce it in experiments. Science represented rational thought (A happens because of B) in oposition to religion's magical thought(A happens because God/an angel/a demon/whatever wanted it so). Western churches vehemently opposed science and tried to supress it, but as centuries passed, rationalism emerged and science found applications -mechanical devices, then electricity, then electronics, then computers-. On the meantime, religion in Europe and the US has been stepping backwards and lost the moral control over a percentage of the population. Some oportunistic individuals saw the 'moral vacuum' as a nice chance to establish themselves as 'alternative religions', be it revivals from ancient times or little, remote parts of the world -Wiccan- or pastiches of different religions put together -sects, spiritism, yoruba-.

Seeing their moral control endangered, big religions worldwide couterattacked in recent times thru a core of ultra-conservative people -either neocons, ultra-orthodox Jews or Muslim fundamentalists- that blame the other's whole creeds (neocons and othrodox Jews say ALL Muslims are dangerous, while Muslim fundamentalists say ALL Christians and Jews, the 'western world', are the threat), and use their own tactics to defeat their oponents -sophisticated war machinery on a side, terrorism on the other side-, trying to impose their views over what they consider sacred and thus limiting the impact of 'rational thought' as an unwanted yet nice side effect by galvanizing their own populations against 'the other's threat.

Despite this rather atheistic speech, I still consider myself as an agnostic. In other words, if you ask me if I've got a religion I consider the 'real' one, I'll say, 'I can't tell. It's all a matter of 'faith'. In this case, faith means, "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence". Like, say, liking Manchester United over Liverpool FC, or Red Sox over Yankees.

Despite all the power they got, and the immense resources they can mobilize, and even the influence over millions of people worldwide, religions are just a matter of tastes. The other roles of churches on our society disappeared a while ago.

raygirl · Prattler Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 198

So...what exactly is your major point and how does it tie in with my first question?

I mean what your saying is interesting, but this isn't really a debate about the history of religious faith, and part of it has already been covered in this topic. I think it was sumarised as 'years ago anything that was christianity was considered as satanic.'

But the part about you being agnostic is another important point. Is beign a satanist really as ridgid as being...say...a catholic? From my experiance from what other people have said satanism is more about believing what the hell you want and not worshiping some almightly god figure....not 'lax' in a sence, but more relaxed than the faiths that say 'you will burn in the pits of hell if you don't do what 'god' says!'

Dr. Dos · Vociferator Joined: 11 Oct 2004 Posts: 731

raygirl you make a lot of posts.

You're going to give AP a run for his money.

raygirl · Prattler Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 198

raygirl you make a lot of posts.

You're going to give AP a run for his money.

I'm a chatty soul :) I just hope people find them interesting. If i'm writing garbage or boring crap that no one cares about just let me know

Who's AP?

wtf · Prattler Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 199

Seeing their moral control endangered, big religions worldwide couterattacked in recent times thru a core of ultra-conservative people -either neocons, ultra-orthodox Jews or Muslim fundamentalists- that blame the other's whole creeds (neocons and othrodox Jews say ALL Muslims are dangerous, while Muslim fundamentalists say ALL Christians and Jews, the 'western world', are the threat)

You simplified this ALOT. For example, for the ultraorthodox Jews, US Neocons are "Jew haters", because they support Israeli "Bolshevik" government of "traitors", work for a peace in Middle East, and of course refuse to give orders to exterminate the "Arab Muslim Nazi civilians" in Iraq and elsewhere.

This while Ultraorthodox (militant) organisations are banned in both US and Israel as a terrorist groups, but of course sympathic websites are there on the Internet (because of a freedom of speach and stuff I guess).

As for a "Muslim fundamentalists", I'm not even starting into this because it's a very complex issue.

Charisma · Vociferator Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 346

My friend at work is a 17 year old goth (lol) and she brought in a Satanic 'bible' that I read the introduction of, and it was very interesting. Basically saying that God was just there to make humans do unnatural things in the name of a controlled scoiety like surpressing sex and everything else. Satanists, how I understand it, have very similar views on life to atheists and worship isn't mentioned much. Just to be natural to yourself itstead of being constrained and trying to be 'good' all the time.

I'm agnostic myself. I don't know, and I don't care to guess!

Squizzle · Prattler Joined: 20 Dec 2004 Posts: 127

I'm agnostic myself. I don't know, and I don't care to guess!

That would be Apathetic Agnosticism, I dare say...
And myself, I'm an adherent of the Church of the Fourth Dimension.

raygirl · Prattler Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 198

So some forms of satanism can be look on as worshiping the self and not a god or deity

but can you really call yourself a satanist then?

Charisma · Vociferator Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 346

So some forms of satanism can be look on as worshiping the self and not a god or deity

but can you really call yourself a satanist then?

I think you can call yourself a Satanist if it comes very close to the principles and beliefs of it. I mean, some people say they're Christian even though they're gay, or don't believe in a lot of what the bible says.

Paul · Needs to get out more Joined: 01 Feb 2004 Posts: 1139

raygirl you make a lot of posts.

You're going to give AP a run for his money.

I'm a chatty soul :) I just hope people find them interesting. If i'm writing garbage or boring crap that no one cares about just let me know

Who's AP?

AngryPuritan, who has some 1400 posts.

FWIW, I think you make interesting posts. Keep on truckin'.

raygirl · Prattler Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 198

I'm a chatty soul :) I just hope people find them interesting. If i'm writing garbage or boring crap that no one cares about just let me know

Who's AP?

AngryPuritan, who has some 1400 posts.

FWIW, I think you make interesting posts. Keep on truckin'.

Thank you. People keep telling me to stop posting, so it's nice to know some people find my topics interesting :)

Mitch · Vociferator Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 670

I'm a chatty soul :) I just hope people find them interesting. If i'm writing garbage or boring crap that no one cares about just let me know

Who's AP?

AngryPuritan, who has some 1400 posts.

FWIW, I think you make interesting posts. Keep on truckin'.

Thank you. People keep telling me to stop posting, so it's nice to know some people find my topics interesting :)

Carry on posting, you're pretty much on-topic and not pointless IAWTC like some.

AlbinoHagfish · Venter Joined: 31 Jul 2005 Posts: 201

Back from SA, bitches. I read the thread and here's my two cents.

LaVey Satanism is never actually practiced, but picked apart much like Christianity for the purposes of the user. LaVey Satanism is also the best friend of Elitist Gothkind everywhere. I've read his Satanic bible; it's not nearly as hedonistic and awesome as the crowd touts. You want a god of Hedonism, worship de Sade. Pick up his works and then spout HIS rhetoric, rhetoric like:

"All, all is theft, all is unceasing and rigorous competition in nature; the desire to make off with the substance of others is the foremost - the most legitimate - passion nature has bred into us and, without doubt, the most agreeable one."

"Dread not infanticide; the crime is imaginary: we are always mistress of what we carry in our womb, and we do no more harm in destroying this kind of matter than in evacuating another, by medicines, when we feel the need."

"Lust is to the other passions what the nervous fluid is to life; it supports them all, lends strength to them all ambition, cruelty, avarice, revenge, are all founded on lust."

"Lycurgus, Numa, Moses, Jesus Christ, Mohammed, all these great rogues, all these great thought-tyrants, knew how to associate the divinities they fabricated with their own boundless ambition."

That's the lightest of it.
See, compared to the very man the word "sadistic" came from, LaVey is a fucking pussy. You want an idol for your inner demons, choose him.
Actual Satanism, for the sake of religion, is rare. And no, it isn't pretty. Satanism for the Devil as a diety is TRULY idolising every vice. Yes, that means sacrifice. And no, it's not widespread.
"Satanism" as we know it has a simple definition. "I want people to think I'm cool and deep and unique and think for myself and shit, so Ima gonna copy the WORST THING I CAN FIND! COOL".
They don't stop to think about Satan being related to the Christian god, and they don't care. Confront them and they either get angry and half-ass their way out of it. If you want to be Satanist, actual Satanist, awknowlege the church you bastardise as fact first of all. Claim anything, anything you want and back it up with Christian doctrine you pervert.
But nobody really wants to be Satanist unless they want to piss someone off, so who the hell cares? :D I'm just jumpin' in the fray.

Seraph · Apocrisiary Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 50

In my experience, being what my clever mum calls a 'goth moth', not quite A goth, but drawn to the culture like an insect that hovers about a wan little black candle... I've encountered several types of people who call themselves 'Satanists'.

First, of course, are Satan Worshippers, they do drugs and have orgies and eat cats. They want to be the evil children of the devil and have his dark powers.

Then there's the LaVey Satanists, who claim not to really believe Satan exists, but they also prettymuch want to be evil little bastards who use the idea that since humans are not devine beings, there's no real reason not to just indulge in doing whatever you feel like.

The largest group are, I suppose, the more rational 'Humanists', who follow an aesthetic eerily similar to that of Catholocism. They believe that all the potential for good and evil exists in their own selves, and therefore it is their own responsibility and will to either indulge or curb their various impulses.

And finally, there's... what I can only describe as AD&D nerds gone horribly wrong. They're not actually evil at all, they're just socially retarded, and angry, and want some kind of control. So they kind of smush together bits of biblical mythology and Wicca until you've got a bunch of naked geeks smeared with black paint dancing around in the woods at midnight.

Yeah, see, this is why there are parents groups who freak out if their kid wants a black T-shirt or a 'Nightmare Before Christmas' plastic toy.

As for Athiests, I think it's just as silly to have an absolute, zealous need to believe that God doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist, then why bother having a faith centered around it? This is like spiritual nihilism... pointless.

I guess I'm Agnostic. But in truth, I believe in myself, my own responsibility for my life, and I don't really care if there's a God or not, because it really won't change anything for me.

nopedestrian · Prattler Joined: 10 Sep 2005 Posts: 142

The largest group are, I suppose, the more rational 'Humanists', who follow an aesthetic eerily similar to that of Catholocism. They believe that all the potential for good and evil exists in their own selves, and therefore it is their own responsibility and will to either indulge or curb their various impulses.

I've never heard of this subgroup. Do they have a name?

All of the Satanists I've ever known or known of outside of one or two confused, ostracized souls in highschool have been on the internet. The recurring theme was that they were all very self-absorbed and believed that they were more intelligent and enlightened than everyone around them. No one who should be taken very seriously as far as their spiritual beliefs go. Most were also very heavily into drug use to a point where it was probably going to end up killing them, which imho sort of nullifies the supposition that they are smarter and better than all the blind "sheeple" out there.

Although to be fair, it isn't as though I've known many.

NajaOphis · Qualificator Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 2

As for Athiests, I think it's just as silly to have an absolute, zealous need to believe that God doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist, then why bother having a faith centered around it? This is like spiritual nihilism... pointless.

Too true. My mother considers atheism to be nothing more than a cop-out, and I agree. Besides, even if it turned out God didn't exist (however that's supposed to happen,) the human mind would (most of the time) make it so that we find another higher power or divine being, to which we can put our faith in. Why? The hell if I know.
What I do know is that we've had gods for as long as our brains have been able to understand that concept, and it isn't going to change anytime soon.
That being said, I say therefore it is impossible to be both satanist and atheist, unless said satanism is more of a lifestyle that a religion (i.e. LaVey's Satanism)

raygirl · Prattler Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 198

I think part of the backdrop for belief if having something to look up to. While there lots of religious nuts who cause havoc and general suffering and misery for the sake of their beliefs, there are honest people who find their faith to be a comfort. Something that sooths them though the harshness of reality and through the troubles they meet.

Some need their belief because it helps explain things they perhaps don't understand...not allways scientifically, but so that those people can feel secure in the knowlage that their god is there taking care of them

Having a deity to worship is like having a father/mother figure to run to in times of need for these people

Seraph · Apocrisiary Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 50

The largest group are, I suppose, the more rational 'Humanists', who follow an aesthetic eerily similar to that of Catholocism. They believe that all the potential for good and evil exists in their own selves, and therefore it is their own responsibility and will to either indulge or curb their various impulses.

I've never heard of this subgroup. Do they have a name?

They just called themselves Satanists or Satanic theorists or some silly thing, and they were into Salman Rushdie and deep analyzing of religion, they did think they were intellectually superior, that they had 'outgrown' the need for mommy God, and that they were ready to act as adults, which the rest of the world was obviously not. As far as I can tell, the reason they thought they were like Satan, is that they identified with the concept of aspiration. The possibility that human beings could attain glory and greatness surpassing that attributed to 'God'.

Don't count me as an absolute authority though, if I recall, the numbers I've spoken to on the subject are like this:

Satan worshippers: 2 or 3, one was in denial about certain aspects.
LaVey Satanists: 1 (2 if you count this crazy guy I ran into...)
Salman Rushdie enthusiasts: 3 or 4, if the last guy makes up his mind.
Crazy pseudopagan roleplaying nerds: 2.
Hot Topic Marilyn Manson Groupie Poseurs: dozens.

ChildEatingMonster · Prattler Joined: 08 May 2005 Posts: 107

the bible would be a lot more better if jesus did something funny.

AngryPuritan · TOP POSTER! Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 1437

If someone gives me a nice postcount whoring contest, it will only prove they have even less of a life outside a glowing monitor than I do...

As for Athiests, I think it's just as silly to have an absolute, zealous need to believe that God doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist, then why bother having a faith centered around it? This is like spiritual nihilism... pointless.

Too true. My mother considers atheism to be nothing more than a cop-out, and I agree. Besides, even if it turned out God didn't exist (however that's supposed to happen,) the human mind would (most of the time) make it so that we find another higher power or divine being, to which we can put our faith in. Why? The hell if I know.

There are many types of Atheists, just like how there is a wide array of various Christians. To some, yes, it boils down to what Theists suspect about them possibly feeling personally that there is a god and just hating him/her/it. It is rare to find such people outside of the age range of 13-19 though.

Another group, is more the agnostic leaning, with a slight disgust in the dealings of faith. That is to say, just because I feel there is no elves living on the moon does not mean that I obsess over disproving the existance of elves on the moon, it just seems too silly for me to fathom, and I thusly am going to assume there are none. The difference from agnosticism is that this type of Atheist generally doesn't entertain the idea of logic pointing to no answer. They don't humor theists in debate. I personally hope I fall into this category...

The third is the more alternate spiritual type, that just doesn't describe his spirituality by religion, often tied very closely with vanilla deism. I cannot explain this any better than Isaac Asimov, and read his words on it if you truly are curious.

What I do know is that we've had gods for as long as our brains have been able to understand that concept, and it isn't going to change anytime soon.

Our views of what a god is have changed so much though. True, humans always used mystic explainations for what they didn't understand, but our polytheist roots defined a god as anyone who lived forever, had powers and had a vested interest in humanity. If you apply this definition to today's major religions, Christianity has at least three gods in it, one being Satan.

With all that said, I know a LaVey satanist personnally. If approached from the same angles I use to avoid such topics with Christian friends, all works out fine. The only difference between a new-age fringe cult and an ecclasia is an assload of time. Some ancient Roman rolled his eyes once as his rebellious teenage daughter loudly proclaimed she worshipped that dead carpenter named Jesus.

Moonbeam · Qualificator Joined: 12 Dec 2005 Posts: 30

Some ancient Roman rolled his eyes once as his rebellious teenage daughter loudly proclaimed she worshipped that dead carpenter named Jesus.

This is the funniest thing I've heard all day. It would take too long to explain why, but the pictures it's conjuring up are sooooooooooooooooo hilarious.

wtf · Prattler Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 199

the bible would be a lot more better if jesus did something furry.

fixed

Stoneth · Needs to get out more Joined: 01 Dec 2004 Posts: 1267

the bible would be a lot more better if jesus did something funny.

*Pharisees enter with woman*
"Hey Jesus! We caught an adultress. Shall we stone her?"
"Ah that's nice, I'm going to write some stuff on the ground."
"Jesus!"
"Oh, if any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her. Write, write, write."
*Pharisees exit*
"Hey lady, where'd they go? Is no one going to condemn you?"
"No one, sir."
"Then neither will I. Go lead a good life. Goodbye."

raygirl · Prattler Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 198

the bible would be a lot more better if jesus did something furry.

fixed

You really shouldn't encourage them. I've seen enough furry jesus' to last me a lifetime

Huzzrah for the Buddy Christ, he is your FRIEND